The problem for you is - not even another riggie supports your solution. You are essentially an individual (one the sites make no money on) demanding stuff that there is literally no reason for them to give and nobody else believes is a practical solution (even if they also have concerns about the RnG). You may as well be asking them to send you a fresh lobster for dinner every night as a solution, at least you might get some minor support from the lobster industry with that idea.



Offer that deal to the boredom riggie then for your help to implement his idea. If he thinks it is a fair offer he will pay it. You probably have a better chance with the lobster concept though, because riggies tend to have no money and they will rarely use the little they have for anything in this regard as we have seen from the boredom riggie in the past, so safe to say he would not even pay you $5 an hour for your services.

As to who the onus is on - well that again depends on the demand from he marketplace. If there is demand for something then the sites will have to react, but if there is zero demand then why should the sites care about whining from fringe participants. Even you will not help the boredom riggie with his solution unless you are paid a fee that is unrealistic, otherwise you will do nothing. Why should any site care to make any changes for him with that level of support.



Well, if your idea was implemented then players like you would be destroyed even more as was happening before the sites clamped down on datamining and selling of hands.


Nice manifesto - but the problem you still face is literally not another riggie is in support of your solution and nobody (including you) are willing to do what you need to try to organize support to get the sites to make the changes you want.


You can call this shilling if you like, but you can also try explaining why any site should change how they do business with regard to you and the other riggie complaints if none of you are willing to do any work to fight for those changes (beyond whining in meaningless riggie threads) and none of you will do any work in support of the other riggie ideas. All of you refuse to discuss this topic for some reason as part of the riggie culture, but it is why you are a marginalized species.

All the best.

you could also explain why a customer should do any kind of work for the provider! i believe you got it backwards...

You are kidding right? If a customer feels strongly that something is wrong with a company they are dealing with then one of the most powerful things they can do is utilize a professional approach to see if others have a similar problem (who want change), and if so then put pressure on the company in an organized manner to make the needed changes. This happens all the time, and many companies use this type of feedback to adjust their product in a way that the marketplace demands.

The problem with riggies is - nobody else seems to care about their concerns. Even the other riggies are pretty standoffish with each other's solutions as you can see above. I do not see you offering to support any of the three riggie solutions either.

If more people in the marketplace had the riggie concerns and thought it was needed for the companies to make the changes to the game to appease them then it is their job to put pressure on the companies to make those changes. This has been done in this industry successfully, even with Pokerstars, on genuine issues.

You and the other riggies, if you truly demand change, need to be less lazy and do it properly. If you just want to whine - then sure, whatever - nobody will really care in the end, and quit this industry and whine in riggie threads which do not matter. Given that is all riggies do for now, the safe assumption is they do not care to change anything as well.

All the best.

i agree with you that people act on their strong feelings, it is just the action that they take is where we disagree: i believe they rage a bit about it, some even come here, then quit playing online. there might exist people that you sort of describe that will indeed start a crusade if feel being cheated, but most people are not like that. tipically they will not post, say 12000 posts on an online forum.

on the other hand, as a thought experiment i am still open to your ideas as to what you think would happen if someone came forward with some sort of evidence! would the maths guys report to the fbi?

I used to offer a $5,000 reward for a riggie to provide verifiable evidence of a rig. If someone came forward with some verifiable evidence then it would be treated much differently than the whiny stuff seen in this thread. I want to know if cheating is happening, and when some sites were clearly bad operators (not RnG related) I was one of the louder voices in their threads here about it. Riggies tended to get in the way and clutter discussions about genuine industry issues, which is why they got segregated to a containment thread.

Look, if riggies just want to use this as their BBV variant, sure that is fine, but it seems many have no sense of reality that whining in a riggie thread has any zero impact. If they want actual change they will have to do some research and organize those who also want the change, just as others have done many , many times in all sorts of industries (and with governments) in the past. If riggies are too lazy to do that, then they can just keep whining and being dismissed. No shilling needed for that, the riggies create that outcome with their own behavior of an issue that some are clearly very emotional about. If none of them can take it seriously to do anything about an issue they worry about all the time, then why should anyone else, especially when everyone else does not even worry about it. Riggies always ask others to do their work for them on an issue they care about. Time for them to do some of it themselves. You agree or disagree?

All the best.

see, this is where you are mistaken! they dont want "change", because they dont care about the "industry" at all! what they might care about is "justice" or "revenge" at most but that is just a feeling and as such goes away fast. they are not invested in the whole thing in the long run - you might be, but you dont do anything about it. (well, the $5k is nice though)

That's the thing - I do a lot in this industry to advocate for changes in things that actually do matter. Do I do that in a riggie thread? Of course not, nothing said in a riggie thread matters. Do I do it about riggie concerns? Of course not, they are a non-issue in the industry. Do I do it on things that matter? All the time.

As to your point about riggie motivations, if they do not care (as you suggest) then inherently everything they say should be dismissed as venting and whining. If I said that, just like you did, then riggies would say that is an example of shilling and trying to distract from the real issue and where are those studies?

dacy has played and lost a ton at poker for 15 years. Pretty weird behavior for someone who does not care at all, but I welcome you to suggest your belief to riggies as they post (that they do not really care) and let's see how they react to that. Do I think you will do that? Of course not.

All the best.

well, if you dont care that people quit playing online because they feel cheated (by rng) then yes, you should dismiss them.

i dont get your point here. nevertheless it is not a question of whose assumption is right. (rigged vs. fair) the problem is that one assumption hurts the whole industry whether that assumption is correct or not.

That again goes to the point of whether this is a big reason why people quit. I do not think it is, as most of the riggies you see here continue to play. I think some quit site A to go to site B then when that is rigged they go to site C etc, but a real small minority of riggies have genuinely quit, and those that did (like the boredom riggie) were barely casual players at any point.

Now it is on the company's to discover why people join and why they quit and they will change their products based on that research. Pokerstars gutted their rewards and lost a chunk of market share as a result. They will likely try to remedy that in future.

The problem is you try to bring macro things like that to individual riggie whining. Boredom riggie stopped playing 1 day a week because deal algorithms are not open for inspection, whatever that means. OK, you run a company with millions of customers and find this out from reading it in a riggie thread. Is your first step to completely change how you do things because of this one rando complaint, or will you see if there is something more systemic to the complaints given by customers as to why they leave. Did one person say deal algorithms open for inspection or have thousands said that (like they did with the lower rewards).

How much time would you spend chasing down every individual riggie concern in riggie threads for your business?



I believe you when you said you did not understand it, despite my saying it in a simple manner.

You suggested that riggies do not really care about the industry when they complain about rigs. I disagree and think many do care, and I cited a guy who has played for 15 years as an example.

I also said that if I suggested riggies do not really care that they would call that an example of me shilling and distracting from their points.

I then invited you to tell riggies the next time they post that they do not really care and see how they react. I then predicted that you will never do that.


As to your point about assumptions, you again equate the assumptions of the fringe participant riggies as being as relevant as the bulk of consumers who do not have riggie concerns. As we have seen here - even a few riggies cannot muster any energy to really support each other's beliefs. Outside of a riggie thread the riggie stuff is a total non-issue, so the appropriate weight of riggie concerns and assumptions is applies - ie: zero.

All the best.

i agree with this completely. i think it is (trust), you dont. but again i am interested in your ideas as to what you think the main reasons are for less and less people playing online, because to my knowledge live is flourishing.

agree with this as well. this was actually my point previously. it only affects the online industry if they lose players, the invidual players' bottomline finalizes when they quit. evidence suggests that all sites have been doing something wrong, because the market is shrinking.

i understood what you said, what i didnt understand was what the point of all this would be. the fact that people eventually stop whining here is due to the fact that they let their frustration go (dont care anymore), as opposed to that they continue to care very much but eventually change their mind and admit that it is not rigged afterall.

as a sidenote: when i refer to a set of things without saying "all of" i refer to the majority of the elements of the set. therefore obviously there may be exceptions that i am even aware of but consider the minority.

We are definitely reading different industry analysis reports . Kind of refreshing to have someone talk about the live game flourishing with Covid when many casinos have shut down or greatly reduced their poker offerings, due to how relatively low value they have always been for a casino.

Feel free to point out the industry reports you have seen showing the online poker and gambling industries are in a shrinking market, because riggies have said the industry is dying for nearly 20 years more out of hope than any real insight. Now questioning whether you want to believe it is failing overall for what it is worth, but whether it is increase, stable or decreasing does not change that riggie stuff is a zero factor and concern overall. It just is a non-issue outside riggie threads, and was only an issue in other threads when riggies cluttered it up before being contained.

I would also be very curious to see your sources for the data of the live games flourishing. I ask that knowing I will not get any.



dacy has posted his complaints for over a decade. The Bastian Booger riggie posted has posted here for over a decade. Other riggies come back from the void for years and years to continue whining, even if they no longer participate in the industry. The boredom riggie has said he quit as well, but he has posted hundreds of his whine version.

I guess you and I see things a bit differently . Seems to me a lot of riggies care for a long period of time, often after they even quit.

Sure, but throwing out the fake riggies (that post to make riggies look bad or are just bad beat whining) - most riggies that post here get very emotional about their experience and seem to care. They would say they care. I would agree. If I said what you did (that most do not care) they would dismiss that as shilling, just as they say when I suggest they take actions to get their beliefs heard properly. That is the riggie way of things.

All the best.

nice catch!

however i am really interested in what you think the cause of the decline of online poker might be - if you care to answer. or do you suggest i am wrong and it is in a longterm up? maybe it is indecisive?

regarding the question of how much someone cares: in my dictionary someone cares about something just as much as they spend energy and effort on that thing. for example im pretty sure people that make posts here whining do care when they actually write their posts. but once you dont see them anymore is a sign that they probably dont care anymore. their frustration on having been cheated let alone this forum topic wont even cross their minds in a month - not to mention in 15 years if you know what i mean!

Most of the reporting that online is in decline is because of bad and lazy reporting.

Let’s take Pokerstars and China as an example. Stars Is leaving the Chinese market. Next year, people will see a decline of traffic and revenue from Stars due to them leaving the market and will print the inevitable “OMG!!! The sky is falling” article, not telling anyone why there was a decline in traffic. In conjunction, they will not show that other sites have increased numbers due to people moving to alternate sites.

You keep talking about the decline in the industry as if it is some accepted fact, but you do not back up your claim. The industry is changing all the time, and some areas have seen dramatic declines (9 man standard SnGs / HU games ) for a variety of reasons while others (Zoom Poker, Spins, PKO tournaments) have seen significant growth.

Online gaming and gambling in general are going through a fairly significant increase in size, and poker tags along with that trend to an extent, but only when the proper products and features are provided for the ever changing customer base. Faster formats. Tablet and phone friendly formats. Chances for large prizes. Software ease of use. Other gaming product availability. Sites that meet the demand and adjust their products accordingly will do relatively well. Those that do not will flounder or fail.

Other factors play a huge roll as well in how the product can be used. In Sweden for now a player cannot deposit more than $500 to a regulated site per week (due to Covid). Other countries have various fees for moving money in and out. Some countries do not allow the sites to award the player any rewards or tournament tickets.

There are a ton of constantly changing parts that make operating in 2020 harder (both as a business and a player) than many years ago, but RnG rigging is literally not on the radar of anyone other than riggies in riggie threads.

Whole lot of riggies have posted their complaints here for months or years, some with multiple accounts. I do not count the fake riggies who just post their whiny bad beat blog for a couple days then poof, nor do I count those who post fake riggie stuff to make riggies look bad. Filtering out the fakes you are left with people who seem to really find the world to be rigged against them, and the reality is that it is unlikely that online poker is the only place where they believe such rigging occurs against them. It is a mental condition, but in this thread it is far more tame and amusing than the real stuff you can find even on other forums here or the internet with regard to riggies/conspiracy people.

Feel free to ask some of the current and future riggies how long they have had their beliefs and if they have similar beliefs in other things. When I ask that they reply by saying that is what a shill would ask . Welcome to the riggieverse.

All the best.

I think we have a pretty good example with Cereus. If it was substantial and credible evidence that made it clear rigging must be going on, you'd have a lot of outrage and many people would quit playing on the site. That's the good news. The bad news is that others would continue to play there - either because they don't hear about it, or because they're making money and don't care. So, it would hurt the site, but perhaps not as much as we would hope. But, at least 2+2ers would be aware of it and be able to make a decision based on the information.

This hand is a good example of how to play if you think it's rigged:



(The relevant hand starts at 42m44s.)

Only online poker. Check This one out also.
https://www.highstakesdb.com/10261-c...n-twitter.aspx

What is your analysis of the dozens of other hands played in that video? I ask because riggies only focus on cherry picked hands, but somehow ignore the bulk of other hands for some mysterious reason.

Also, there were 3 riggie solutions to the whole problem offered a little while ago in the thread. Feel free to say which, if any, you would totally support as a solution to all your riggie concerns. Thanks!

All the best.

Really? Wow. So I guess if that would never happen in live poker, live poker must be rigged. And you can't be the only person to have noticed this, so there should be a rigged thread over in the Casino & Cardroom Poker forum as well. Maybe you should post your evidence there.

Wow, from the ridiculous headline to the even more ridiculous use of bold text at random throughout the article, that was dreadful.

Lol, But not as dreadful as that runout.!!

Maybe you should search all the videos out on the internet if live poker of this happening. 2 5 off suit. I bet you'd never find it

Like I said, if you're suggesting that runout would never happen in live poker, then you're also suggesting live poker is rigged.

The 25 guy had 4% on the flop. Basically close to a 2 outer on a river. Does a 2 out river mean the game is rigged?

Were you the guy who did a youtube video of a single microstakes hand to show it was rigged? Like A4 beating AQ or something, because that never happens in poker or something, or were you the guy who posted the freeroll hands. Maybe you were both, who knows, but if so - hey, at least you actually did a video of a hand. That is more work than the other riggies here.

Also, You still have not analyzed the other dozens of hands in the one video to explain how they help prove it is rigged. After that feel free to choose among the 3 solutions offered by other riggies in this thread to tell us which, if any, will make you feel it will not be rigged if they did what these riggies ask.

1) Bastion Booger Riggie concept - send all hands ever played with anon user names

- bordom riggie is ok with it, but will do zero work about it, because the online poker industry is above the law (despite many countries regulating it), and nothing can ever be done about it so no point even trying

- profiler is against the idea because they hide who he is playing against and he cannot find out why he is losing, because no way he is losing due to being weak at poker.

2) Bordeom riggie concept - "deal algorithms open for inspection"

Note, the boredom riggie will do no work toward getting this change in place other than be vague about it in the riggie thread. The Bastion Booger riggie has yet to accept this as an ideal solution and the profiler is kind of ok with it, but not fist pumping. No specific details have been given with how this would happen, and none will ever be provided.

3) Profiler riggie concept - "I want to have my full hand histories with the names of all participants in the hands "

Not a lot of support for this one so far from other riggies, and of course this being available would be used by hard core regs and staking groups to literally brutalize the games for casuals, but it is a proposal being tossed around.


Thanks for your feedback! They will appreciate your support.

All the best.

Might not be a 2 5 off suit, but if it happened online, you would claim it was rigged.

https://youtu.be/zkCNPl1Siz8

This is easily the 6th + post where you refuse to just provide a link to the studies and data you said exist that prove every one wrong. Instead you posts walls of text, create your own narrative of pretending things dont exist, asking for people to do 500 person polls, etc etc all while talking around anything that has to do with you providing what you stated or just simply saying you were wrong.

Youre an ******* basically. You just think you post 500 word responses and it makes you look smart and in control. But really you just look like a child that cant answer a question. Do i think poker is rigged online? Most likely not overall but im certain there has been and will be bad actors in the space. For you or anyone to be in this thread for years and years defending any way the site doesnt have to have transparency i think that speaks volumes. If youre so certain and such a smart guy why would you engage this thread at all? What life do you have that you have 10k + posts in this thread alone?

Shame you are having a meltdown, but in the end that is your issue. Also, a bit bizarre that you keep obsessing about those studies when I have (many, many, many times) said that no hand history studies of any kind are possible in this industry, and that you were victorious in that detective work. I also said that you would continue to obsess about these studies even after saying that over and over, but it was not hard to see why. The why is literally nobody cares about your riggie solution, even other riggies,and you are clearly avoiding that topic.

So, given that I have done a lot of work for you to try to find any other riggies to at least support your anon hand solution, and none have been interested, it is safe to say that I have now demonstrated to you that your idea is one that literally nobody else cares about, so there is zero reason why any online room should change how they do things.

Feel free to continue to rant on about "studies" as having told you about 10 times that no hand history studies in the industry are possible and that you won that amazing point is doing nothing to stop that from you. Perhaps that, along with tossing out threats of physical violence (which would likely not go to your plan) are your ways of soothing yourself at this point, which - whatever - your issue. Take up yoga or whittling to get better emotional control. You will obviously do no work to try to get traction on your solution. You should quit all forms of online gambling, but most riggies like you continue to linger, so do whatever you like. This post was under 500 words (even below 400 words), so hopefully it will not cause a further emotional breakdown from you.

All the best.