Pretty much this. The only way you win this hand is if all the planets align perfectly. There are just too many circumstances which have to be met for you to make any money with this hand. This is why we fold complete airball garbage hands like K5o, no matter what the bet size, especially on paired boards. Besides, if 888 rigged the deck to make your flush, how do they actually KNOW you're going to go allin with it? I mean, why should they bother making it a paired board where there is some possibility you might actually fold like the rest of us? Why dont they just run the board out like A2567 that way you easily go allin and villain flips over 89 ?

Sure it did. 2+2 converter confirmed rigged, amirite?

My graph at 2nl would show new players win (i.e. when I was a new player). By the time I moved to 4nl I no longer benefited from the new player boomswitch.

I don't really have the BR to play 25nl full time yet. If I did, rest assured I'd be leaving this rigged 4nl BS behind right away.

Yeah, hilarious. The difference is I had the NUT flush whereas a superfish will make that call with the 5, cos he has a flush. But 888poker rewarded the donk.

It wasn't a runner runner flush draw then, I had loads of outs. On the turn I put the villain on AK and it's possible he was never folding trips with top kicker so it was well worth calling the PSB because of implied odds. On the river I reasoned he must have the Q instead or just some random spade that he thinks is good.

Because straight flushes are supposed to be really rare, like once in a year type events. If they deal out too many of them even the most blinded and close minded shill out there could see something was up. Full houses are much more common (I probably get one of these every couple of sessions on average) and so are more difficult to prove as rigged.

You seem to have no clue how often these things should actually happen. I suggest you start there.

lolpotodds,

I did the math for you, because I expected you weren't able to. The math said you played the hand bad. You say you didn't.

Now, there are two possibilities: There are mistakes in my post, or you are wrong. Agreed?

Why ignore my post if you can prove me wrong and let me look like the donk I am? If you still justify your play, point out these mistakes. Or go, post your stance in the strat session, and quote my comment, and ask who is right. That way you would actually maybe learn something, as much as you hate it.

Ah, once in a year huh? Care to provide a link sourcing your evidence that straight flushes only happen once per year? Also, how do you know that your opponent hasnt had a straight flush in the last year? Maybe he's due for one so you should be worried.

What makes less sense however, is that you just admitted fullhouses are more common, in fact you get one every other session you play. So then why arent you afraid of someone else having one when the board is paired?

I guess what we're observing here is "projection". Because obviously YOU would go allin with the queen of spades, you think your opponent would too. Or the king of spades, or trip aces for that matter. Much like chasing runner runner flush, these are normal occurrences and you see nothing wrong with this. Well you just lost a stack to it. Maybe you should take some responsibility for that and recognize you actually did make a mistake, and that there are no implied odds on a paired 4-flush board when you are holding the 25th nuts.

More overpair vs overpair on 888poker today. Look at this rigged BS below.

888 Poker - $0.04 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 58.5 BB (VPIP: 75.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 5)
BB: 291 BB (VPIP: 27.27, PFR: 9.09, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)
UTG: 100 BB (VPIP: 10.87, PFR: 7.61, 3Bet Preflop: 3.23, Hands: 191)
CO: 108.75 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 33.33, Hands: 5)
Hero (BTN): 100 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K K

UTG raises to 3 BB, CO calls 3 BB, Hero raises to 11 BB, fold, fold, UTG calls 8 BB, fold

Flop: (26.5 BB, 2 players) 7 T 3
UTG bets 89 BB, Hero calls 89 BB

Turn: (204.5 BB, 2 players) 9

River: (204.5 BB, 2 players) 6

UTG shows A A (One Pair, Aces) (Pre 82%, Flop 92%, Turn 95%)
Hero shows K K (One Pair, Kings) (Pre 18%, Flop 8%, Turn 5%)
UTG wins 194.5 BB



--------------------------------------------------------

And this one. You know why I didn't 4bet or raise at all in the hand? I KNEW this guy had AA. 888poker's rig was screwing me over again. The calldown was just to prove I was right, and look, I was!

888 Poker - $0.04 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 222.75 BB (VPIP: 21.79, PFR: 17.77, 3Bet Preflop: 8.00, Hands: 477)
BB: 70 BB (VPIP: 10.42, PFR: 10.42, 3Bet Preflop: 33.33, Hands: 49)
UTG: 113.25 BB (VPIP: 35.00, PFR: 17.50, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 41)
Hero (CO): 100 BB
BTN: 116.5 BB (VPIP: 62.50, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 16)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q Q

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BTN raises to 6 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 3 BB

Flop: (13.5 BB, 2 players) J 6 4
Hero checks, BTN bets 4 BB, Hero calls 4 BB

Turn: (21.5 BB, 2 players) 4
Hero checks, BTN bets 8 BB, Hero calls 8 BB

River: (37.5 BB, 2 players) 6
Hero checks, BTN bets 14 BB, Hero calls 14 BB

BTN shows A A (Two Pair, Aces and Sixes) (Pre 81%, Flop 92%, Turn 95%)
Hero mucks Q Q (Two Pair, Queens and Sixes) (Pre 19%, Flop 8%, Turn 5%)
BTN wins 62.25 BB


-----------------------------------------------------


Although no doubt otatop will be along soon to tell us all how he wouldn't have even raised preflop and my play is awful, as he could have sniffed out the aces from the other side of the table.

But when I get AA? Of course, no one ever has KK or QQ then, do they. Nah, they fold flop at the absolute best, and normally they just fold to the preflop raise.

Obviously it depends how much you play. But straight flushes, as the highest hand in holdem, are exceptionally rare compared to full houses. So if 888poker dealt out too much straight flushes the rig would become apparent way more quickly.

And full houses still aren't that common that we should be folding the nut flush in fear of one. And even if I did play that hand poorly there's way more evidence of a rig than just that one hand. I've had 4 hands with QQ-KK preflop against AA in the last 2 days (1200 hands). It's like 1.5% someone has AA when you have KK, right? That's gotta be more than 5 standard deviations from the mean or whatever that idiot franxic thinks is statistically significant.

Nah I wouldn't shove with the Q, but as villain was a fish I thought he would.

LOL, you 3bet a super nitty UTG raise, then snap called when he shoved for 3x the pot and are amazed KK was no good. What the **** do you think an 11/8 UTG raiser is jamming on that super dry flop that you beat, dumb dumb?

Jeeeeeeeeeeeeesus. That dude probably has a note on you that you're free money.

NH with the QQ vs a massive drooler, you got lucky that the board scared you both away from trying to shovel too much into the pot, or lord knows you'd be another 100 BBs in the hole.

See, I've got the dead read on this guy, knew he'd be along shortly to tell us how he'd have played it perfectly.

I guess in both hands you're folding pre, right?

That unfortunately is the downfall of 99.99% of poker players, and 100% of all those that never win at poker. They believe they are better than they actually are, and think they deserve to win. Its only when you realise that you actually know so little, you stop beating yourself up about it.

I believed that pokerstars was totally rigged, set up against me, and that I could never win. Week after week I deposited, chased the winnings, believing I was good enough to win, but the only thing stopping me was Pokerstars being rigged against me. Well I carried on, and on and on, then one day someone on here posted something and I took his advice. I closed my Pokerstars account, stopped depositing. Amazingly, I've stopped losing, I no longer deposit every week, and the bad beats have stopped. Pokerstars are happy, I am happy.. So all in all, its a win-win situation. Maybe, just maybe, you should consider doing the same. I promise you, you'll sleep much easier at night... I do.

Well just move to a new site and reap the benefits of their new player rig. Then when you've won, withdraw it, go back to 888 who will have forgotten about you, and most probably would be grateful for your renewed custom. They will let you win a bit to try and entice you to stay with them. When you've won a bit then repeat with all the poker sites, and so ad infinitum. Eventually you will win the money you feel you deserve, and you'll be happy... We'll be happy because when you reach the final table of the WSOP we can all sit and admire at how you were right all along that you don't need to learn a damn thing.

If you know that you have hit top pair, and will lose, then there is a very very simple solution that someone of your vast experience would be expected to know. Its called FOLD. Why anyone who knows the game completely would call knowing they are going to lose, is beyond me.

I came to the conclusion long ago, that if the site is rigged, and I know that I am going to lose, then the stupid person isn't the "donk" who the poker site rewards, its actually me for carrying on betting when I know I am going to lose.

If you stick your fingers in a plug socket and you don't get a shock then you may continue to do it working on the assumption that because you did it once and it was safe, it must be safe the next time..

Only when you get a 240 volt shock and you are blasted across the room will you realise that all those times you stuck your fingers in a socket and didn't get a shock, was down to luck tmore han anything else. You didn't actually have divine powers that made you immune to lighting up like a bulb when sticking your fingers in the socket.

And so it is with Poker, when you realise that all the times you win is more down to luck than it is skill, then you realise that the losses you encounter are actually far more likely than you thought and when you were winning, you were avoiding what will always happen in the end. Its just knowing how to deal with it when it eventually happens.


What on gods earth are you on about. ?

Well if I was 100% convinced that the poker site was against me, and were going to screw me one way or the other, then actually I'd fold every god damn hand they dealt me.

If I hit a royal flush on the river, and I was convinced the site was against me, I'd fold it, because I'd be convinced that my opponent would have 5 aces...

I didn't even tell you how to play it, or how I'd have played it. I merely questioned your thought process when shoved on for 3x the pot vs a super nit's UTG raise preflop. Apparently the thought process stopped at "I has KK!" and that's terrific. Yes, I routinely open fold KK and QQ.

Can I ask, out of pure curiosity if you are being genuine about folding hands like KK pre flop, and give an explanation as to why, and how you come to the conclusion that your opponent has AA. Given the propensity of players to shove with hands like 88, AK, AQ, then surely a hand like KK is almost impossible to fold pre flop.

OK, I can understand if you were on the button in the Sunday Millions and 4 players shove all in before you, and by folding, you make the money. But that's about the only time I could envisage it being a realistic move.

In every thread I've ever read about folding AA, the argument is you should never ever fold AA pre flop no matter how many are in the pot. Which makes sense if you follow the argument that you go in with the best hand, and you are favourite to win. However, that flies in the face of many on here who argue that just because you have the best hand going in, it won't mean you have the best hand coming out.

So on that basis, if there are 3 players all in pre flop, and you have AA, it actually makes sense to fold because you are more likely to lose against 3 plaeyrs than you are to win. Is that the same line of thnking you are using with KK and QQ ?

Or have I got it completely wrong, and just talking nonsense.

Regardless how awful lpo is in general, that KK hand is a ship preflop. No one folding KK at 4Nl on that flop against anyone. I am not sure if you're joking here about open folding it pf, but you better do.

The second one.

Sure I'll tell you the thought process. Given he flatted my 3bet I ruled out AA since I'd expect him to 4bet with that. And only a ****** would play a set like that. So I figured it was a 'no action please' overbet, or JJ-QQ trying to 'protect' their equity.

Knew you'd have sniffed out the aces though. I still don't understand why you're playing $10 tournaments instead of final tabling the WSOP and playing heads up with Ivey. With all your talent you should be raking in 8 figures a year from this game.

As ktnxbye had asked, how on gods earth do you fold KK, especially at lower limits.

Its all very well taking the high ground, and saying "well anyone with half a brain would have folded KK there", then gone on to say you regularly fold KK, but without offering a reason, and an explanation why, without being a condescending moron, then its all a bit "ooh if that were me I'd never have lost"

Why do you "regularly" fold KK, and what makes you do it, and more importantly, why is that players play so bad in that hand. I don't actually see any bad play in that hand at all, so rather than just sitting there telling him "you played it bad, and I would have played it better", why not tell him precisely where he went wrong, and what you know, that he wouldn't have known and would have prevented him losing so much, where you in your infinite wisdom would have been able to get away from it unscathed and having a really clever smile on your face and the entire poker world thinking "what a genius"

That's not otatop's style. He much prefers to tell us all how he would have played the hand brilliantly and how he's never put any money into the pot while behind.

I've no idea why we don't see him on HSP and PAD shows.

FYP

It seems you've misunderstood, I said it as a joke. I've never (intentionally) folded KK preflop. I don't think there will ever be an actual in game situation where I would fold KK preflop. I was merely joking that it's a routine play since lolpotodds said I'd say to fold pre.
Yep, that's exactly what I do and what I've said. Well part of the problem is I don't believe either of those shows still exist. Sort of the same reason I'm not challenging Stu Unger to HU4rollz, DUCY?

If I'd folded flop and said I did so because villain had AA, you'd all say I didn't have any proof of that since I didn't see showdown.

By calling down I actually got the proof of this rig to post here.

Wait, so are you saying the mighty otatop would have put money into a pot when behind? And not only slightly behind, but an 82%/18% dog?

Because like, you had enough to say when I put 1bb into a pot when behind...

Your stupidity still amazes me. Jesus.

Also, from your posts it sounds like you're playing NJ games. If you can't even beat those... that really says something.

I got KK last week and ended up all in OTF vs AA and hit a 4 card diamond flush for the nuts cracking his aces at a live game.

Live poker must be rigged.

But that isn't proof of a rig. It's nowhere near.

As far as your New-Player Boomswitch Theory goes, if:

a) You are being outdrawn and coolered more than you should be on average, and
b) The extent to which you're being outdrawn and coolered more than average is statistically significant, and therefore unlikely to be due to chance alone, and
c) New players are definitely the principal beneficiaries of this deviation from the deal that one should expect

then you have a rational basis to believe in a new-player boomswitch.

But you've gone straight to ZOMG RIGGED without even being able to definitively say that (a) is actually true. You feel that you're being outdrawn and coolered more often than you should be, but you haven't done any sort of analysis to check.

It's exactly the same sort of (il)logical leap as someone who goes "Funny pattern in field. Therefore aliens."