Nothing like healthy aversion to harmful public debate.

exactly

If that's a success your next book could be called: "Moving Up to Where They Respect Your Raises".

It would detail how a losing player magically became a winner by moving to a higher stakes game.

Seems to work for you.

How many hands do you have in you database and how many of them fit this criteria? Then ask yourself how you have managed to remember and analyse them from memory to convince yourself it is rigged?

I appreciate you have probably used this scenario as "an example" of what happens but that just means you are analysing even more information from memory, so lets concentrate on this one. Get your data together and get somebody to review it for you

Number of hands played by you = (from database)
Number of hands river seen without an all in = (from database)

Number of hands won without showdown = (from database)
Number of hands lost without showdwn = (from database)
Number of hands won with showdown = (from database)
Number of hands lost with showdwn = (from database)

Your opinion of expected number of hands won without showdown if not rigged =
Your opinion of expected number of hands lost without showdwn if not rigged =
Your opinion of expected number of hands won with showdown if not rigged =
Your opinion of expected number of hands lost with showdwn if not rigged =

Seems like a good place to start, expecially since you have already analysed this situation in your head from memory and concluded there is riging going on.

If I had to give a prime example of a poker player who eventually realized online poker was cheating him all along it would Andrew Robl.

Online winnings for him is at 17,000. Casino winnings 3.1 million.

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-play...ndrew-robl/bio

You have to be a troll. I refuse to believe someone is this ******ed.

Is it possible that he actually is a long time 2+2 member that crushed online before making a transition to playing more live events, and you just saw random numbers on a web page and decided to made up the part about him realizing he was being cheated playing online poker when in fact he never said anything of the sort?

Just curious if that was at all possible.

Or maybe he doesn't understand the difference between cash game winnings and tournament winnings?

What does this even mean? Why are there quotes around "King of ******s"? Who/what are you quoting?

TheBiggestDonkey.

A few years ago me and my friends played a lot of hold'em together. Two of us used to round off the evening by flipping a bit, dealing out a hold'em hand each and then running four flops. We would sit like this for hours. You would be amazed by some of the things that ocurred, I mean, we once saw 26o cracking QQ on four consecutive, different flops, card removal and all.

Now I started playing poker online in 2010. I think I lost 15k or so in 2010 and 2011 combined. I didn't want to stop play though, and one day my friend advised me to actually start studying the game a bit, find out what kind of tools and information is out there. I didn't know that it existed at all, neither did he at the time.

Then I bought Hold'em Manager and e-mailed Pokerstars and asked for the hand histories of all the hands I ever played. Contrary to my beliefs, I was actually running hot, even with my huge losses.

Now I never got too good at the studying part, but with some basic brm and understanding, I managed to peak at 6k profit in 2012. I ended the year only 2k in the green, but at least I didn't have to pay for my hobby.

Back to the flipping story - you should sit down with a deck of cards and just deal flops. My guess is you haven't seen enough of them.

Not at all. If you haven't noticed by now, though, this thread tends to meander at times.

I'll agree with you that it shouldn't be assumed that if an RNG were operating exactly as it should be, it would still be possible to rig the software. I just don't think it's important enough to worry whether someone talks about the software, RNG, shuffle, or deal that is rigged. It's not like they've seen the site software and know exactly what's happening where.

Actually, I was genuinely confused/curious, as most people just use generic terms like "a poker room", "a poker site", or for brevity, "a site". When you kept using the exact same term, capitalized, I wondered if it was directed at one site in particular. Thanks for the response, I'm done with that, no redirection desired.

I suspected as much, but thanks for the clarification.

Well, it only seems logical to me. If the site was doing something extremely simple like filling inside straight draws on the river more often than it should be, because they know it will be fish chasing those most often, that would seem to be an extremely easy thing to set up in the software, but also very simple to detect. At the other end, TBD's rig theory would require extremely sophisticated software (likely not achievable IMO) on the poker site's side, and would be near impossible to detect. Something in between, like a cashout curse for example, would require a little more sophistication on the poker site's side in that the rig would be different for different people depending on recent cashout activity, and on the detection side would require more information than can be found in hand histories alone.

Except that to anyone who understands the process, when someone talks about 'rigging the RNG' it sounds like complete nonsense. If you want to rig the deal you ignore the RNG (for some cards, at least).

It is important in the case where people suggest that the deal is accidentally rigged. That (in the sense that some pattern of certain hands being affected in certain, consistent, ways), simply cannot happen as a result of a malfunctioning RNG.

I disagree.

Yet another of the many, many, reasons why rigging the deal is not a runner:

If you rig the deal (in the way that riggies generally claim it's rigged) then presumably you have some objective that is observable to someone.

If no one can detect any change as a result of the rigging then there is no point to it.

But if someone can detect the change then that implies that the rig is detectable. This should always have been and '/END THREAD' argument:

For there there to be any purpose to a rig it must make a difference that is noticable. If it is noticable that necessarily implies that it can be detected.

But, of course, riggies and non riggies alike simply ignore that argument and pass on to some other piece of nonsense to qrangle over.

I think you misunderstand me. Proof or disproof of a cashout curse would require knowledge of when cashouts occured; that is the information not available in hand histories.

This doesn't make any sense. How is it detectable, yet it won't show up in hand histories?

Ah, yes, I did misunderstand.

I thought you were talking about some particular player determining if he'd suffered from such a curse.

OK, I'll make the same offer I've made to several riggies in the past.

You describe a rig that is noticeable to some players and I'll explain how it would be detected just from their hand histories.

We'll assume that the players in question have suitably size hand history collections.

What is obvious to one riggie may be completely different to another riggie, in fact many times their observations will be the exact opposite for a situation, like big stacks winning too much or small stacks winning too much.

The fact that after all these years not a single "obvious" rig has been proven changes nothing for them, as theirs is a belief system which does not rely on logic or facts, so the thread cannot end because their need to believe will not end. That's why I pretty much never try to change their beliefs, I just tell them they should quit all forms of online poker, since they cannot compete.

If one riggie theory fails they simply change it, much like how the world was supposed to end in 2012 gets adjusted to be 2013, then 2014 etc for those who need to believe in that.


Pretty routine conspiracy stuff, nothing more. Threads and debates have existed like this for a lot longer than online poker on a variety of topics, just part of the human condition where a certain percentage tend to be quite paranoid about the scary world around them. In the old days people would stand on street corners preaching (some still do), but now many go digital with youtube videos.


All the best.

yes. because we all know how much easier it is to own a successful winning player, then to try to beat a player making all the wrong moves.

Not as many have that dream as they did when poker was everywhere on TV.

Sites do help new players with bonuses and promotions (new player deposit freerolls etc), but that is more of a marketing approach than a rig. If you looked at graphs of new players you would see most start with a lot of losing, so I am not sure why riggies think all new players win.


Winners tilt. Whenever I have a player that has a monster week, the concern is that they believe they are entitled to keep winning at that pace, when that is very unlikely.

Similarly cashouts for many players take place after a nice tournament score, and that is the time when many players have an artificial sense of their abilities and "move up" with their new bankroll. The extreme versions of this are the guys who win a ton in a Sunday Million who spew it all away within a week.

This hardly happens to everyone, but it is not uncommon, and it is a function of people playing games after a win that they are at a huge disadvantage, nothing more.

Blaming a "Cashout curse" simply removes the responsibility from the player in their mind, and many players have cashed out dozens or hundreds of times without any "curse."



They are simply the riggies of the moment, and if you read the whole thread you would see literally hundreds of different beliefs and theories (none proven) that include things like superbots, country based rigs, season based rigs, mafia based rigs, rigs based on laptops vs desktops, "entropy effect," Royal flush rigs etc.

You name it and someone believes in it, and many times one riggie belief directly contradicts another, but they all manage to agree that proves it must be rigged. If you are a "Cashout curse" and "new player boomswitch" believer then that puts you in a fairly routine and common sub-section of the riggie culture.


All the best.

I made it clear that I have no expectation of changing what you need to believe. I know your faith is strong, and that is fine, I was just pointing out a lot of what your culture is about, and if you read this thread you will see all the details I have mentioned (including all of those weird riggie theories) are represented here.


Guys like you should definitely not participate in a game like this when you cannot compete (if the money matters at all), and if rationalizing that it is rigged against you helps you make the correct choice of never playing again then in a way that belief serves a purpose for you.


Just to warn you, there have been many, many different magic software rigs proposed, so if you are going to go down that belief path you may want to look over this thread and other riggie threads to find a particular strain to believe unconditionally as that will be a lot easier on your brain when you know what you need to follow, as most riggies function a lot better when being told what to believe in simple terms (like cashout curse) instead of trying to explain their individual beliefs.

Hopefully this advice will make you a happier riggie.

All the best.

Ah! The old is poker rigged debate!

This is never going to go away and do you know why?

Because this isn't a player versus player issue. Its a player versus poker site issue!

For this to go away poker sites need to be more transparent in what it is their software does and then comunuicate this to the players.

FACT - Anyone who can write software will know how easy it would be to manuipulate 52 numbers to create a desired outcome based on a set of predetermined rules.

FACT - Anyone can deduce that if these 52 numbers were manipulated in a certain way it would mean more money for the poker sites.

FACT - We do not know whether the poker sites are doing this!

So this whole debate is not worth the hard drive space that it is stored on.

All those that say it is rigged have valid arguments!
All those that say it isn't rigged have valid counter arguments!

But none of you know!

On top of this you are getting mixed up with being poker players and not with being a poker business. To the companies running these sites it is not about the integrity of the game, it is about their profits. Just read this networks web pages to see what I mean.

http://www.ongame.com/poker/

What we do know though is that both the believers and the non believers will continue to play on line poker - that is why the poker sites do not need to explain themselves.

FACT - We would know very very quickly if they were doing this in any way which was so noticeable that a person could conclude that the deal was rigged just from playing.

And yet they never post any evidence supporting their arguments.

Except that 'All those' equates to roughly zero in this thread.

Hi, Sully.

You seem to have missed the post below.

Easily done as it's such a busy thread, so no worries. :0

But I don't want you to miss out so all you have to do is give us a detailed explanation of a rig and, if I can't explain exactly how to detect it, you will have made more progress in getting a 'shill' to admit to there being a reasonable possibility that a site is rigged than any riggie to date.

Go for it, tiger.

Sully,

See how happy you are now that you have someone telling you something to believe in that you want to believe in as I suggested for you to find.

You are now on pace to have a happy riggie lifestyle, albeit one with no money. Don't pay attention to other shills at this point, just be a good riggie follower as is your nature. Go to youtube and look up online poker videos by a guy named Magic, you will love them and believe everything he says as well.

All the best.