Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > > >

Discussion of Poker Sites General discussion of online poker sites.

View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.00%
Undecided 893 9.06%
Voters: 9860. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-27-2009, 02:31 PM   #3751
Markusgc
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Markusgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Noodles, Hockey & Punk Rock!
Posts: 8,788
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
Here is how it works:

1 .Software manipulates the game making favorite hands to win less frequent then expected (but obviously winning close to the expected rate)

2 . The favorite hands that are manipulated can be any hands, from AA, AK to 53o, doesent matter, what matter is that the favorite hand win less frequent than expected.

3. The manipulation can be made at any point of the round: pre flop, flop or turn.
even when the players do everything possible to lose with their AA or 53o? does the software manipulate the players' thoughts too, forcing them to make decisions in line with the site's desired outcome?
Quote:
5 . The objective of the manipulation is to make the money stay in the table generating rake more time than expected.
how does this apply to tournaments?
Quote:
These kind of manipulation is virtually impossible to detectd through any statistical analisys, because you would have to know 1. wich hands are boing manipulated 2. In wich point of the round thay are being manipulated 3. in wich point of time thay are being manipulated.
so how did you detect it?
Quote:
Without that information you wouldnt be able to detect any statistical abnormality, simply because you would be looking for the wrong place.
care to share that information with us so we can see this for ourselves?
Markusgc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 02:32 PM   #3752
KingOfFelt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
KingOfFelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: West Coast
Posts: 7,233
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
Well, I apologies not being able to present my arguments in English that is up to standard. I am not an English speaker, learnt this language being adult and I have to tell you that I completely understand how you feel when you read my poorly written English. Again, please accept my apologies, I speak another 3 languages fluently, but you are right: coming here I should be able to present my saying in better form using the languege of this forum.

Having said that, I believe the reason of not getting any useful replies for my arguments about the lack of software system audit, how the business continuity aspects makes impossible to enforce policies is not my poor English. You guys simply have no idea how software system works and why so relevant the software system integrity in the context of an online business. That’s why you are unable to have an intelligent conversation about online based software operation, and when I presented my arguments received nothing else but personal rants, and I think it is nothing to do with my poor English – it says a lot more about you guys.

Anyway, thanks again for pointing out.

For the record, I'm not so ignorant as to think everyone must be proficient in the English language in order to post on a message board that is popular in many non-English speaking countries.

That said, your rant earlier about probability showed how little you actually know about variance over a large sample. This is a key flaw to your debate. You claim proof cannot be presented of a fair deal; whereas, I believe millions of hands analyzed that show that variance falls within the proper range over said sample is very indicative of a fair deal. At the very least it shows that more than likely it is fair. Fortunately, the laws of probability are on my side and not yours.
KingOfFelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 02:34 PM   #3753
Markusgc
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Markusgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Noodles, Hockey & Punk Rock!
Posts: 8,788
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

even this guy took the time to study data...

Markusgc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 02:39 PM   #3754
DMoogle
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
DMoogle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Northern VA, USA
Posts: 7,140
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
These kind of manipulation is virtually impossible to detectd through any statistical analisys, because you would have to know 1. wich hands are boing manipulated 2. In wich point of the round thay are being manipulated 3. in wich point of time thay are being manipulated.

Without that information you wouldnt be able to detect any statistical abnormality, simply because you would be looking for the wrong place.
All you need is PokerEV, HEM, or another EV calculator to see where you're at vs. expectation.
DMoogle is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 02:46 PM   #3755
PokErasmus
centurion
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 110
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMoogle View Post
He's just saying that there's no point in saying "I think it's rigged", then not showing any REAL evidence or at LEAST requesting that someone test their specific theory about how it is not fair.
Well, I have noticed the crusaders who try to stop having intelligent conversation about seemingly rigged poker sites having very little ability to apply basic formal logic to the problem. Yesterday I tried to demonstrate that applying basic logic and a small element of set theory makes completely useless your 24/7 shouting about the multimillion hand sample analysis. Right know I would like to suggest to go back to basics. Here is a simple formal logic formula.

Statement “A”: Poker sites operators states that will deliver a fair, randomly distributed game to players and promises an uncompromised software operation and system integrity, and its operation will comply with enforced policies

Statement “B”: If the poker site operator intentionally fails to demonstrate that their system is integrity is not compromised by malicious components, if the the policies are not enforced on their system, if the poker sites continuously refuse to provide evidences that their system is fully audited, if the servers including business continuity servers at any location are not under the full control of the gaming authority the operation cannot be seen as fair, it must seen as a manipulated system, it is dishonest and unfair, in plain English is rigged

A = TRUE
B = TRUE
therefore PS and FT is rigged


Now, please go run, and do the google about formal logic than bring your usual personal rants.
PokErasmus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 02:50 PM   #3756
Markusgc
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Markusgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Noodles, Hockey & Punk Rock!
Posts: 8,788
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
Well, I have noticed the crusaders who try to stop having intelligent conversation about seemingly rigged poker sites having very little ability to apply basic formal logic to the problem.
I just went over the very simple, basic logic of why YOU are the crusader but apparently that's beyond your grasp.

Also, when were you planning on starting some intelligent discussion?
Markusgc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 02:51 PM   #3757
toltec444
grinder
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 496
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
even when the players do everything possible to lose with their AA or 53o? does the software manipulate the players' thoughts too, forcing them to make decisions in line with the site's desired outcome?

how does this apply to tournaments?

so how did you detect it?

care to share that information with us so we can see this for ourselves?

1. No, what I´m saying is that IF a hand goes to the showdown it will win less frequently than expected.

2. This model dont apply to tournaments.

3. I didnt detect, Im proposing a model of manipulation that would be lucratove for the site and hard to be detected, and propably cheap.

4. ?????
toltec444 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 02:54 PM   #3758
toltec444
grinder
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 496
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMoogle View Post
All you need is PokerEV, HEM, or another EV calculator to see where you're at vs. expectation.
With these software for sure you can make statistical analisys but what I noted in the post is that the ablity to make satatistical analisys is worthless if you dont know:

1. Which hands to look for manipulation

2. In wich point of the round to look for the manipulation.

3. In which point of time to look for the manipulation .
toltec444 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 02:54 PM   #3759
spadebidder
Actually Shows Proof
 
spadebidder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: This looks interesting.
Posts: 7,906
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
Statement “B”: If the poker site operator intentionally fails to demonstrate that their system is integrity is not compromised by malicious components, if the the policies are not enforced on their system, if the poker sites continuously refuse to provide evidences that their system is fully audited, if the servers including business continuity servers at any location are not under the full control of the gaming authority the operation cannot be seen as fair, it must seen as a manipulated system, it is dishonest and unfair, in plain English is rigged
Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Your logical fallacy is laughable.
spadebidder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 02:58 PM   #3760
KingOfFelt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
KingOfFelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: West Coast
Posts: 7,233
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
1. No, what I´m saying is that IF a hand goes to the showdown it will win less frequently than expected.

2. This model dont apply to tournaments.

3. I didnt detect, Im proposing a model of manipulation that would be lucratove for the site and hard to be detected, and propably cheap.

4. ?????
So you have no evidence, but you just think this "could" work and therefore must be happening?
KingOfFelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 03:01 PM   #3761
Markusgc
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Markusgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Noodles, Hockey & Punk Rock!
Posts: 8,788
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
1. No, what I´m saying is that IF a hand goes to the showdown it will win less frequently than expected.

2. This model dont apply to tournaments.

3. I didnt detect, Im proposing a model of manipulation that would be lucratove for the site and hard to be detected, and propably cheap.

4. ?????
Quote:
Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
With these software for sure you can make statistical analisys but what I noted in the post is that the ablity to make satatistical analisys is worthless if you dont know:

1. Which hands to look for manipulation

2. In wich point of the round to look for the manipulation.

3. In which point of time to look for the manipulation .
this is all about the same thing as saying "I'm not sure that UFO's exist, but here's how they'd probably operate if they did." Nice work, Dr. Dummy. Shall I share my theories on how sex with your wife would go if we had an affair?

Let's get some real debate started...

I Can't Believe Y'all Watch Fake-Ass Wrestling
Markusgc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 03:04 PM   #3762
toltec444
grinder
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 496
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
So you have no evidence, but you just think this "could" work and therefore must be happening?

I dont think it must be happening, but taking into account everything PokerErasmus said about policies etc. I have to think that is more probable that it IS happening than not. Simply because if you can win 2x dollars in a year why would poker companies want to win just x dollars/year?
toltec444 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 03:06 PM   #3763
Markusgc
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Markusgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Noodles, Hockey & Punk Rock!
Posts: 8,788
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
I dont think it must be happening, but taking into account everything PokerErasmus said about policies etc. I have to think that is more probable that it IS happening than not. Simply because if you can win 2x dollars in a year why would poker companies want to win just x dollars/year?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQCU3...eature=related
Markusgc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 03:10 PM   #3764
toltec444
grinder
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 496
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
this is all about the same thing as saying "I'm not sure that UFO's exist, but here's how they'd probably operate if they did." Nice work, Dr. Dummy. Shall I share my theories on how sex with your wife would go if we had an affair?

Let's get some real debate started...

I Can't Believe Y'all Watch Fake-Ass Wrestling

No is not the same thing because UFO were never proved to exist but manipulated sofware are a part of our daily lives. It happens with banks, with email, with security softwares. Manipulated softwares used by malicious companies is not a never proved to exist thing as UFO. So dont try to confuse minds.
toltec444 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 03:10 PM   #3765
KingOfFelt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
KingOfFelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: West Coast
Posts: 7,233
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
I dont think it must be happening, but taking into account everything PokerErasmus said about policies etc. I have to think that is more probable that it IS happening than not. Simply because if you can win 2x dollars in a year why would poker companies want to win just x dollars/year?
Perhaps you can clarify what exactly PokerErasmus is saying about "policies".
KingOfFelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 03:12 PM   #3766
PokErasmus
centurion
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 110
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
You claim proof cannot be presented of a fair deal; whereas, I believe millions of hands analyzed that show that variance falls within the proper range over said sample is very indicative of a fair deal. At the very least it shows that more than likely it is fair. Fortunately, the laws of probability are on my side and not yours.
You believe because you are enough arrogant to ignore my rational and logically valid arguments that I presented yesterday, including why the nature of the domain (i.e. in the context of poker any hands is valid and must seen as random) makes irrelevant the multimillion hand analysis if the site distribute winning hands to designated accounts, as any hands perfectly fits into the domain and well within the boundaries of the domain.

Additionally, you are enough intellectually blind to ignore the fact, that their IT infrastructure has never been adequatelly audited, the policies are not enforced, the operation is not opened to public scrutiny, the infrastructure is based outside of the control of auhtorities, therefore these Russian maffia backed Israelis operates a way that is unimaginable in other fields of our civilization such as in financial, transportation or health systems.

Sorry ... I forgot, you don't care about regulations, IT security and system integrity - you have your large sample ... (the sample that relevance anyway is zero if the sites really manipulates the card distribution as the manipulated cards perfectly fits into any samples just like the not manipulated cards do).
PokErasmus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 03:13 PM   #3767
Monteroy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,099
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
Well, I have noticed the crusaders who try to stop having intelligent conversation about seemingly rigged poker sites having very little ability to apply basic formal logic to the problem. Yesterday I tried to demonstrate that applying basic logic and a small element of set theory makes completely useless your 24/7 shouting about the multimillion hand sample analysis. Right know I would like to suggest to go back to basics. Here is a simple formal logic formula.

Statement “A”: Poker sites operators states that will deliver a fair, randomly distributed game to players and promises an uncompromised software operation and system integrity, and its operation will comply with enforced policies

Statement “B”: If the poker site operator intentionally fails to demonstrate that their system is integrity is not compromised by malicious components, if the the policies are not enforced on their system, if the poker sites continuously refuse to provide evidences that their system is fully audited, if the servers including business continuity servers at any location are not under the full control of the gaming authority the operation cannot be seen as fair, it must seen as a manipulated system, it is dishonest and unfair, in plain English is rigged

A = TRUE
B = TRUE
therefore PS and FT is rigged


Now, please go run, and do the google about formal logic than bring your usual personal rants.

Ah, now this is the good stuff, pure riggedology in all of it's glory.

Keep in mind that the tenants of the riggedology faith require the following:

- Vague statements

- Assumptions in the place of facts

- Disproval of assumptions required

The beauty of riggedology is it sets impossible conditions. You must disprove assumptions that are not based on anything but creative thought.


In the above example B:

- Sites must prove they are not rigging based on undefined conditions (try to decode any specific conditions in his part B).

- If somehow the conditions are met then newer vague ones will be put in place that cannot be met.

- Once the site does not disprove rigging based on these random, undefined conditions set forth, the next step is to translate that into an assumption of "they are clearly hiding something"


It is the basic form of "logic" of a riggedologist (and any conspiracy addict). Instead of working through the logic of a process, they set an end goal (in this case OMG RIGGZORS) and create in their mind logical steps to get to that goal.

I ate a sandwich. Sandwiches are made out of bread. Bread is another name for money. Thus, I like eating money.

Actual facts will not work as a counter to this approach as they will merely switch the conditions and toss in personal insults (ie: you guys are too stupid and naive to see the real truth) to keep the riggedology practice going at full speed.

Those of you trying to counter with logic and requests of proof are on a never ending mission. Just sit back and enjoy the riggedologists, especially the really dedicated ones. Admire the beauty of their artistry (blame the Russians etc).
Monteroy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 03:14 PM   #3768
KingOfFelt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
KingOfFelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: West Coast
Posts: 7,233
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
No is not the same thing because UFO were never proved to exist but manipulated sofware are a part of our daily lives. It happens with banks, with email, with security softwares. Manipulated softwares used by malicious companies is not a never proved to exist thing as UFO. So dont try to confuse minds.
Manipulated software in the way you have suggested is not part of our daily lives. Give me one example. Also, UFO's do exist, they just are usually planes or helicopters, but to the viewer they can be UFO's. A parallel can be made here in regards to your theories.
KingOfFelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 03:15 PM   #3769
Markusgc
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Markusgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Noodles, Hockey & Punk Rock!
Posts: 8,788
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
Simply because if you can win 2x dollars in a year why would poker companies want to win just x dollars/year?
why would your grocery store want to give you 1.0 pound of steak when they could really give you .95 for the same price?

why wouldn't your bank actually give you 2.99% interest on your savings while saying you get 3%? heck, they probably charge you 8.01% interest on your mortgage but tell you it's 8% too!

why would your daughter give you all her money from walking the streets when she could squirrel away a few bucks for herself?

I guess you just can't trust anybody these days.

If you think every business entity is out to screw you, why would ya even consider putting money into any of them?

Last edited by Markusgc; 05-27-2009 at 03:21 PM.
Markusgc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 03:18 PM   #3770
KingOfFelt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
KingOfFelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: West Coast
Posts: 7,233
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
You believe because you are enough arrogant to ignore my rational and logically valid arguments that I presented yesterday, including why the nature of the domain (i.e. in the context of poker any hands is valid and must seen as random) makes irrelevant the multimillion hand analysis if the site distribute winning hands to designated accounts, as any hands perfectly fits into the domain and well within the boundaries of the domain.

Additionally, you are enough intellectually blind to ignore the fact, that their IT infrastructure has never been adequatelly audited, the policies are not enforced, the operation is not opened to public scrutiny, the infrastructure is based outside of the control of auhtorities, therefore these Russian maffia backed Israelis operates a way that is unimaginable in other fields of our civilization such as in financial, transportation or health systems.

Sorry ... I forgot, you don't care about regulations, IT security and system integrity - you have your large sample ... (the sample that relevance anyway is zero if the sites really manipulates the card distribution as the manipulated cards perfectly fits into any samples just like the not manipulated cards do).

I don't know anything about you either, and I have not had an independent audit done of your character. Is it alright if I believe that you beat your wife? Your logic fails.

EDIT: The part I put in bold is false. You are thinking about probability in the short term, but not over a large sample. Sure you could get pocket Aces a number of times in a row and as an isolated incident would never be able to prove any sort of "rigged deal", but if over a million hands you got dealt pocket aces 50,000 times this would clearly indicate a non-random deal. Fortunately, no studies have ever shown the deal to fall outside of the proper possible variance.
KingOfFelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 03:20 PM   #3771
Markusgc
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Markusgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Noodles, Hockey & Punk Rock!
Posts: 8,788
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
You believe because you are enough arrogant to ignore my rational and logically valid arguments that I presented yesterday
I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.
Markusgc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 03:23 PM   #3772
Markusgc
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Markusgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Noodles, Hockey & Punk Rock!
Posts: 8,788
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
the infrastructure is based outside of the control of auhtorities, therefore these Russian maffia backed Israelis operates a way that is unimaginable in other fields of our civilization such as in financial, transportation or health systems.
great, now ZOG is in on it too. I'm definitely gonna introduce some Turner Diary-esque rhetoric into my Wrestling diatribe now.
Markusgc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 03:26 PM   #3773
Username^^
veteran
 
Username^^'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Reviewing hands in my dreams
Posts: 2,784
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

this is not leveled 3 vs 2. Marcus, step aside and make sure everyone plays by the rules.

Username^^ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 03:27 PM   #3774
PokErasmus
centurion
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 110
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
Your logical fallacy is laughable.
I think you are laughable with your useless large samples, in which perfectly fits any manipulated hands just like fits any not manipulated hands, therefore you are terrible missing the point with yoor so called analysis. You are useless.

Anyway, between two laugh and your meaningless multimillion nonse analysis, please disprove my logical formula, I will be happy to admit that I made a mistake.

And then please explain how the unregulated, intentinally not audited operation that is outside of the control of the authority can be manifested in a fair game.

[[ As for mentioning my wife, thanks for asking but she is all right. I don't think you hand analysator freak of nature will ever know what is having relation to a woman, anyawy it was good talking to you :-)) ]]
PokErasmus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 03:28 PM   #3775
Markusgc
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Markusgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Noodles, Hockey & Punk Rock!
Posts: 8,788
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
Sure you could get pocket Aces a number of times in a row and as an isolated incident would never be able to prove any sort of "rigged deal", but if over a million hands you got dealt pocket aces 50,000 times this would clearly indicate a non-random deal.
see, here's where they're devious...

you will get AA the proper number of hands, but IF you get to showdown, you'll win less often than expected. because it's nearly impossible to determine the exact number of times you're supposed to win AT SHOWDOWN in multi-way pots, when the fish gets his miracle river card you'll just say "that's poker." meanwhile, the site allows him to play a little longer, laughing all the way to the unregulated offshore bank.

do I have that right?

oh, not quite. that only applies to cash games. there's a totally different theory on how they rig them. ask sooper for a briefing on that.
Markusgc is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive