Indeed. Stars has the bankroll to put the best HUD into their client software and ban everything else. Then, no excuses - you are either lazy or not, or don't care, but you can't bitch.

This is not only about HUDS, seating scripts and Player rating systems are also a huge problem.

The fact that HM2 can create notes FOR YOU is pretty impressive, and it just a massive edge to know if someone plays their draws and semibluffs agressive or passive, without actually even having to pay attention to the action.

I do agree that HUDS have some positives ( the biggest one being to observe and report foul play), and I can certainly understand the other side of the argument.

My main point continues to be that we need to do whatever we can to make online poker a trusted and fun place to play for recreational players.

I have a number of friends who I used to play home games with. These guys are all awesome spots, who enjoy poker, have disposible income, and would be perfect for the game.

Alas, none of them play, because they do not trust online poker .

Now it is not our job alone to fix this problem, the pokersites that are making a fortune off of rake bear the biggest responsability. But we Professionals do have an important role to play.

Without recreational players, most of the money goes to the rake, and only the best of the sharks win a little.

If it's this powerful, then why not just crush? It's not the guys that are crushing 6-figs a year that are recommending huds be banned.

The thing I'd love to know is this.
If, say, I sat down at a live poker table with a pad of paper and a pen, and I wrote down the times somebody VPIP'd, PFR'd, 3bet, folded to a 3bet, limp, continuation bet, fold to a continuation bet, etc...

Do you suddenly think I'd have a huge advantage in that game? Would the game be forced to break because I know the frequencies of which something happens? Would paper + pens be banned from the poker table, along with writing down hand histories?

HUD's are not the issue, plain and simple.

Wanna bet??

I don't know any reg with such winnings that would be pro huds lately. The only reason why many of us support huds is because banning it as far as my knowledge go would just give an enormous edge for people capable of fooling the system and still use it. Many huge winners are pro hud not because they like them but because they don't see a way to enforce the ban because banning it will just give enormous edge for people able to cheat the system.

Honestly I am impressed how self serving and delusioned weak pro huds regs are. Lets be honest most of you couldn't win and make a living in poker without HUDs. Confirmed. So please stop posting in a thread if you don't have any clue. The arguments you use could be valid in 2009-2010 but not now with the whole hm2+note caddy 2 packages bull****.

We got to the point where the biggest edge you can create is with programming skills (note caddy notes, sitting scripts, mass tabling software for smaller sites) not by studding the game and get better.
If it isn't a red flag for everyone I don't know what is.

LOL how about knowing player BB vs BTN fold to cbet in his entire carrier(or lats 3 months/whathever period you choose in your hud). Fold to 3rd barrel in 3b pot BTN vs BB in his entire career (or last 3 months). How much he folds to cbet in 3b pot when boards is at least Qh+ or low board. Software that will tell me if Villain fold when T and/or R are overcards and whether it makes Villain more able to fold or not. Info how much Villain blufs the river with or without busted draws. Etc. etc.
Info that Villain bet/fold T and/or River with an exploitable frequency.
I can post it over and over again. So please stop posting if you have no idea what the issue is. Most of the pro huds ******s don't even know what the info you can get from the newest software clemx mentioned so dear ******s please stop stating your opinion "because you can" when you have literally no clue what the issue is.

Some players get freaked out by the idea of HUDs. But I don't believe that a HUD is necessarily as effective as a lot of people think.

A HUD gives accurate stats for the average play for all players at the table. That average play doesn't necessarily well reflect how someone plays against me though. HM2 allows stats for players versus the hero but to use those stats a huge number of hands need to be played in order for them not to be misleading. I rarely look at those stats. PokerTracker 4 was originally supposed to have similar "vs hero" stats but decided not to include them at the last minute because they felt that since the sampling size would need to be so large that including such stats would generally hurt their customers' win rate.

HUDs are great for multitabling and they are great for rec players who would otherwise not have a clue as how to play against other players. But really good players look for things that aren't well represented in HUDs. Years ago many good players advised against using HUDs because they were distracting. There are plenty of instructional videos out there where the instructor doesn't use a HUD. I think that it was the ability to multitable more than the advantage that HUDs gave good players that brought a lot of them onboard with using them.

Regs massive multitabling is probably the best thing that ever happened for rec players. A lot of multitablers are satisfied to make very small profits on each table, no profits at all, or even small losses at each table for the sake of profiting from rakeback, VIP rewards, leaderboards, etc. QTip is a really good player who has made plenty of instructional material and freely admits that he is a losing player in regards to directly profiting from other players when he massive multitables .

I really don't think that HUDs are the problem that some other people do. I wouldn't mind seeing table scanners, note caddy, seating scripts, etc. disappear but once software is developed I don't think that it is so easy to make them completely disappear. And unless they do completely disappear there will always be tech savvy players who will be able to use them and profit more than ever before. I do think, though, that sites like PTR can be gotten rid of. PokerStars paved the way for that by bringing the matter to court.

Maybe. How many of these 6-fig regs do you know that want huds banned?

I'm not very hud pro either (since I spent thousands of hours behind my tracker offline for over more than a decade and wouldn't want to extended that luxury to my opponents that are up and coming pros either), but that's not the really what your saying here, is it? You're talking about dudes that had the easy life and got lazy and went broke. Pretty much the same in any field for those that wish not to stay up on technology.

Well don't want to give people an edge but even in HM2 people found workaround -you can create stats how the player plays vs a population of regs, you can make it even more specific e.g. how Villain plays vs regs with high fold to cbet/low fold to cbet, high WTSD, low WTSD whatever you like.
So no sample size isn't an issue and I can assure you that is more than enough because people adjust vs particular Villains less that you think especially when they are 9+tabling.

Have you ever talked with any recreational player??? You would be surprised. From their perspective there is nothing worse than non chatting, roboting, timing out 40s just to fold mass regs. How people can be so delusioned is beyond me.
If you look at pokerscout the only poker room that increased their trafffic significantly is 888 where they made specific meassures again masstabling (cap 6 tables). So lol at claiming how good masstabling and huds are for recreational players but hey who would bother with blus**** stuff like being able to back up my claims. "I think it is great for recreational players so it is!!"

If it's so pre-packaged, then why are you whining on a message board instead of crushing? I'm legitimately interested. If you're just wanting to play for fun, then why not take the easy route and use a hud and crush??? Should be fun to make a mortgage payment in a few days, no?

Not really, would say that most of the guys I talk about poker are still really successful at small- to midstakes (tho I don't really know anyone playing nl1k+ or so, so can't really say how they think about it).
It is more about how you define a problem. Basically the question is how we want the game to advance. We got the point that making software and improving it gives you significantly bigger edge than any work skill related.
We got to the point where it is the software not skill that gives you the biggest edge.

I am not whinning I just participate in the discussion given that it is dead time for games anyway and I just found the thread moderately interesting.
Believe me or not but I love the game and what it gives (e.g. the freedom to travel) so I want it to stay and I don't think that current situation is sustainable the way it is now.
there is more and more poker rooms that noticed it too and introduced some heavy anti regs measures (party poker,bodog,microgaming,merge to name a few).

Basically either player and poker rooms will create some compromised solution or there will be forced solutions comming from poker rooms (e.g. player segregation, new unibet starting at the Q1 of 2014)

You are deluded believing that current status quo is sustainable and poker rooms won't do something about it.

Not at all. This is your perception.

A Bet River vs Missed Turn CB OOP X% doesn't help you unless you know how to do the math. Since 99% in this thread don't even know what that stat refers to, let alone how to crunch the math, it's not the hud that's the problem. Go read Mathematics of Poker.

Anyway, my last post in this thread. I have no horse in this race since I play live exclusively now (would love to play full-time online at Stars again, though).

Heh, they are doing stuff about it, but it's not to help your narrow ass. They don't care if you win or lose; they care about raking you as much as possible. That's the worst objective you could wish for. You really don't want poker to become a game where the house (rake) has the biggest edge. You think you do, but you don't.

(okay, last post... have fun)

I can't say I'm really worried about players who don't adjust to other individual players since those players aren't going to get my money anyway. That's exactly why some rec players can sometimes beat multitabling players who they would have never otherwise been able to beat.

The extent that you believe in your stat workaround is just nonsense. You are just deluding yourself that you can circumvent sample size by making generalizations about regs. You're just trading one generalization for another.

I've worked with many many rec players on another site that I used to work for. I know rec players very well. That you state that rec players think there is nothing worse for them than players that aren't chatting etc. is about the stupidest thing that I have ever read.

If you think that you can determine how successful rec players are against regs by looking at pokerscout's traffic listing, you are the one who is delusional.

I think that it is pretty obvious that a reg multitabler who is not taking any money from a rec player (or even losing money to the rec player for that matter) and is making his profits directly from the site's promotions, benefits the rec player. It's been discussed that it's exactly that type of leveling of the playing field that may very well be the purpose of The Beast. I'm not at all surprised that you can't see that though.

There is perhaps a legitimate debate as to software and its effects long term on the health of the poker ecosystem.

Unfortunately, that is not where the vast majority of anti-hud posts come from in this forum.

The majority of these rants stem from weak minded players looking to blame anything but themselves for losing because its easier on their egos than it is to admit that they are inferior at the game.

Its never them.

Its house bots.

Its the rigged RNG.

Its the HUDS.


I have an idea. How about you adjust to the rules of the game and focus your energy on improving. You better because I can assure you that good winning players are doing just that. Thats why its really irrelevant to most winning players whether a site permits HUDS or not. Either way the winners will just adjust and continue winning and the ones blaming HUDS for their losing will just find another excuse other than themselves as to why they are failing.


Btw, the mere fact that some believe a good poker player would be rendered a fish without a HUD really shows a total lack of understanding as to why a player is successful at poker and further illustrates the intellectual gap that exists between them and that said player with regards to the game itself.

now if only we knew where the reg reward money comes from. any ideas?

Most, but not all (ie. The Beast), "reg rewards" are a form of rakeback.

It is ridiculous point of view. You want people to play poker because it is fun not to become another poker pro. If not the ridiculously stupid "improve" focus we would never have pokerstrategy.com that introduced literally hundreds of thousands new regs to the game (mostly from Eastern Europe). If you don't understand why focusing on improving and make people play better isn't sustainable I don't know what to say.
People should play poker because it is fun not because they want to become next Phil Galfond.

We would be in a completely different place if at the beggining of the poker boom rooms focused on making game more and more fun instead more and more regs frienly (poker pro-baller approach)

well you would be probably surprised with how many people in the industry I used to talk with.
I probably even know what network/site you worked for given that you mentioned Wining network and the best (and no they nowhere being sucessfull).
the recreational players play poker because it used to be fun; the thing is that there is less and less fun in online poker hence the structural decline in online poker business.
I know how hard it is ti evaluate the "fun factor" but I can assure you that paying with 20tabling+,always timing out regs isn't helping.
It is all about offering recreational players the biggest amount of entertainment for their money.
Instead you just made weird simplification where masstabling regs are good because they make fish bleeding the money slower.

Anyway no point in discussing we agree that we disagree. My last post in this thread anyway cause there is no point in maintaining the discussion the way it looks now.

i don't think it is a waste of time. the problem will get more and more pressing with software getting smarter every now. best way to continue could be players refusing to give action without webcam prove that no software is used.

You guys are wasting your energy. Question is not whether we should or shouldnt ban the hud,seating script etc. The real question is How can we ban the hud ?

Until somebody can give reasonable answer to that question (Death penalty for hud users is not reasonable answer btw) None of the discussion in this thread matters.

If you are only playing with a player pool where 90% of the people are effectively using a HUD, the skill gap is lessened ( of course it still exsists, the HUD does not make high level metagame decisions ), and once you play enough hands to overcome variance, almost all the money ends up as rake.

LONG TERM, Recreational and new players are essential to the game, in oreder to make winning players possible.

Another point:

Back in the 90's, Sklansky wrote about why limit was so much more popular than No Limit. At the time NLH was close to dead as a game. Moneymaker, TV, Internet, etc... revived NLH and now it dominates the market.

BUT, the theory behind the game remains. In NLH, the losing players lose their money too fast, with almost no chance to win, and do not come back. HUDS, seating scripts, and other tools only accelerate this process.

So recs lose their stack very quickly and never come back.
Because of a HUD? How the f... would a hud help me beat a rec who played 50 hands and got busted and left the game?
It's rare that you see a rec with a decent sample for basic info and almost no way to have a worthy notecaddy note on one.

How would the lack of seating script help? He would lose money about just as fast vs any reg that sits at his table. And by your definition seat hunters are worse players than normal.

The only way for him to last is if he plays against other fish, even then some of the fish would be the "regs" of the game and crush

Not really, no. How is it a recreational player can lose what they've deposited within 50 hands, while having 50 hands on a player isn't even considered a sample size for your HUD?

Stats make regulars make better decisions against regulars. Recreational players are very easy to play against, and thus don't require stats to beat.

Yes, actually, you can start there but need to improve upon "butts in seats" as a metric.

You then might want to look at the same number of butts in seats divided by the number of multiple-table butts. 1 guy playing 24 tables is not a measurement of popularity with the same meaning as 24 guys playing 1 table each.

The difference may be material.

Additionally, the number of unique players who return to play, with weighting for a frequency of however many visits, might show a popularity indicator better as well.