This. Please.

It seems to me that non-observable tables of some sort is becoming an inevitability. A small tweak to complete unobservability could be as follows (haven't read the whole thread so sorry if this idea is already out there):

Let every player have an option in their account settings "Be Visible to Observers", which is set off by default. When a table is opened by an observer, any player with this option turned off will appear only as "Seat X" instead of their screen name. When the observer sits at the table (or when they get dealt their first hand, perhaps), the true player names will be revealed. Everything proceeds as usual for people actually participating in the game.

Advantages of this versus making all/most tables unobservable:
- New players can still become comfortable by observing tables to see how the games work.
- A game-selecting player that engages in game selection without relying on personal or illegally-trafficked hand histories or player summaries can still watch a table for a few orbits to see how people are playing.
- Allowing "Be Visible to Observers" to be an option will allow high-stakes and/or ego-oriented players to be mine-able if they WANTED their results to be publicly tracked by various unstoppable data mining sites.

Disadvantages are all the same as the disadvantages of unobservable tables:
- Players can't use their personal hand histories to game-select.
- This might create a more intimidating and less comfortable environment for new players in general.

This is absolutely false. First off the only reason the UB scandal broke was because someone from within the company accidentally sent out the file containing the hole cards of the cheater for all his hands in a tourny. PTR or datamining had absolutely ZERO to do with them getting caught.

Also, this is mostly just BS anyway, people like to claim that stuff like this keeps the sites "safer" because players can monitor it. Point out to me all the big cheating cases that have been found out beacuse of PTR? You cant, cuz there really isnt any. And the handful of times it might be true (if there is even a handful), doesnt even come remotely close to making up for the damage it does.

People found bots and stuff on party poker long before PTR and when you could change your name more frequently than every 6 months, so again, PTR does absolutely nothing to stop this "self policing"

The whole "self policing" thing itself is kind of a joke IMO. You are basically saying you dont trust the sites in the slightest to catch abusers, who have access to ALL the info, but you trust some crackpot rigtard to comb through his datamined hands and find the truth? And for everytime these people have actually caught someone, theyve completely ruined the reputation of someone else whos innocent.

Sorry guys this is only one real Dude.

I've definitely heard something like this before, but "near future" and a couple of other things sound like they might actually be doing something, this time.

Actually just got a response from FTP support:



Hello xxxxx,

Thank you for your feedback.

Full Tilt Poker does not condone or support websites such as the one mentioned below, in any way.

We appreciate your suggestions on how we can improve your online poker experience, and we'll consider implementing time limits for observing games on Full Tilt Poker.

We often roll out new features on our site, many of which are a direct result of our players' input.

Good luck at the tables, and if you have any further questions, please let us know.

Regards,

xxxxx

Full Tilt Poker Support



As far as I know, it's the first time they actually mention the possibility of implementing a third party proposed solution such as limiting Table Observation time, so this could be good news as well.

This should be stickied and any thread regarding PTR should reference this post.

This is why I think it's much better to find a simple way to limit observation time from anything above NL/PLO .5/.10 to under 25/50 or even 100/200.

That way, ethical game selection is still possible but consistent data mining isn't.

You can only observe one table per account unless you are on the waiting list.

It seems so simple.

The AP scandal broke because of the file the UB did not. The majority of superuser screen names were discovered because of mypokerintel which was similar to an earlier tableratings for UB. It is unlikely any of of the superusers would have been exposed at all if this data did not exist. And no the sites have shown several times that they can not be trusted to police themselves. The 5 million+ recovered from that incident is enough for me to be against anonymous or frequently changing screen names.

I don't think sites like PTR should be allowed but. . . . Everyone wants whats good for them and doesn't care whats bad for everyone else. having computer generated data is bad for everyone involved. Programs like poker tracker give an unfair advantage to the players that use it just like PTR gives a huge advantage to players that use it.

Lets just be honest here: People don't like PTR because it makes it harder for the winning players to get action//people like Poker tracker because it gives them an advantage since they are able to play more tables and get a good view of what an opponent plays like whether they remember that player or not.

So at the end of the day, lets quit the smoke and mirrors. Everyone only cares about their bottom line and could care less about the good of the game. Both programs are bad for the game but one costs people money and one makes people money.

people observing tables is a huge draw for online poker. Think how much buzz the whole isuldur saga created. Things like that are good for the overall health and publicity of the game.

People already do this all the time.

They make an alias in HM of the 10 best regs at the limit and compare the stats.

Novel idea to some, but people have been doing it for years.

I'm just saying PTR+ isn't a big deal. It might help out the lazy, but it's not going to give you any special info you don't/can't already have with a little ingenuity.

It doesn't matter to fish. Their graph has been up there for years and it's pretty clear how they are doing.

I really like this. My only question is will this really stop the big data mining services from creating thousands of accounts? It will make it harder but i'm assuming they would still be able to find a way around this.

"CobaltCurse" (lol, seriously?), go back to playing WOW and don't troll this thread because this is a serious issue to a lot of players.

If you have a problem, PM me and we'll talk about it, but don't come here to spill your teenage insecurites because like I said, this is an important issue to some.

The day you get laid as much as I do, you'll probably have dropped your CobaltCurse fantasy world a long time ago.

Also, learn how to spell, this is truly embarrassing and too much to bear.

If an account has observed for x amount of hours without playing a hand disable observation for a certain period of time.
Also I think forcing ptr to have thousands of accounts is beneficial in terms of catching their accounts and making it tougher for them in general.

Why x amount of hours?

What are the possible reasons one would want to observe a table?

-Railing: That's why we're advocating limiting observation time from .10/.25 to 25/50, so that railing nosebleeds is still possible and beginning players can observe play at micro stakes all day long if they want to.

-Just before sitting down at a table, to see who's playing where and maybe get a feel for the general table dynamic.
Shouldn't take more than a couple minutes at the most.

-Data mining: Only instance in which you'd want to observe a 1/2 table for 5 hours straight.

This is false Josh.

Alobar,
FWIW, lots of people have been caught multiaccounting at MTTs because of OPR/sharkscope. Obv it'd be pretty easy to replace the 2p2 sleuths with some Stars/FTP security guys, but they don't seem to actually do that.

This has nothing to do with PTR, PTR is only for cash games.

Watching friends.

When I say everyone. . obviously not everyone only cares about themselves but most of the time when this topic come up its usually by players who are having trouble getting action. I firmly believe that poker tracker and PTR are pretty much the same exact program but only one of them gets negative publicity. I seems most people are hypocrites when these topics get started.

off topic: I love me some NOFX. They're a band who keeps getting better with age. I missed my one chance to see them live and have regretted that decision for years. I hope to catch them before they retire.

Playing cash games? You watch your friends play cash games for hours on end?

Keep in mind this is only for cash games.

Even if that were the case, I'm sorry to have to say that the need of the many (who want PTR out of the way and simply poker's long term health) outweigh (by far) the need of the few (players who want to sweat their friends playing 1/2 NL for 6 hours straight live).

Josh I agree with you, I really do. I just want you to know there are many that do care about the long term health of poker. I'm on the same page as you man, but you need to email the site you play at.

You'll find 2+2 very biased when it comes to this issue, and it makes sense really.

NOFX: Grew up with them, now I'm over 30 and not looking so purrty from living the good life provided by punk. So let's open another big box of cheap wine, I'm pushing 40 and doin' just fine

All tables being "observed" show players' names as xxxxxxxx, same goes for hands written down and players note, etc.

So, unless you're seated at the table, you don't get the privileged information.

I'm glad there are others out there who care about the bigger picture. I agree about two plus two being biased and agree that it does make sense. I would hope however that people who owe their livelihoods to this game would be smart enough to see the big picture. In the short term here though, I do agree, FTP/PS please do something about data-mining.

NOFX: They are one of the few bands from my younger years that have gotten better or are just as enjoyable. Far to many bands from my youth tried to follow the trends to make a quick buck. NOFX did things their way and have made a decent living at it. . .Seems to be a good way to live.

Would not writing observed HHs to your computer help stop this problem? It seems to me like without the ability to read the old HHs you've observed/replay the hands, it would be almost impossible to keep accurate track of the hands that are played.