lol......rounders 2 + student loans = easier?

Easier. Right now your average American can't get money on the site but you have a thousands of solid American regs playing. Basically the fish bust out and the winning players remain.

If America gets the boot it would help because it will remove a large portion of the regs from that country. The other alternative which I hope happens is Americans can freely deposit/withdraw with no problems and it brings in a new influx of fish.

Worse case scenario is things remain the way they are right now, which is difficulty for the fish to deposit but the sites are stuck with the winning American players. I want this to change one way or the other.

All in preflop at the 25/50 $1000 max A2 suited, any pair, ect. Like I said how can it get any easier? All in pre flop 2/7?

Very good points. I'm a US resident so I haven't really thought about how a closed off US market would affect the rest of the world. I think you are probably right. Looks like any form of legislation will have benefits to players outside the US.

I believe that you will definitely be able to use Debit Cards to deposit online if legislation passes. I'm not sure about Credit Cards though I'm not convinced that you will not be able to use Credit Cards to deposit. I mean, they have ATM machines in Casino's that you can use Credit Cards for a Cash Advance, why would it be much different for Online Poker? Lottery is a whole different ballgame IMO.

Even being able to use a Debit Card or eChecks would make it much easier and quicker for recreational players to get money on sites, which in turn makes the games easier. I just do not see it being harder for recreational players to make a deposit. It isn't in anyone's best interest.

days I play: harder
days I take off: like 2003

The game are going to get easier and the only reason is the ratio of takers to makers.

Once the economy fully recovers and the U.S regulates online poker all the regs will get a huge pay raise.

If your making money now you have nothing to worry about in the future. The emergence of 3rd world countries and the fact the world population is always going to grow makes me very optimistic.

Just think about all the people that find this site and still are losing players.

As long as more money is coming in then is going out poker will be profitable and at a good clip.

I'm a very optimistic person so all you realist winning players should probally find something more rewarding to do.

I'm from the UK so very selfish view here.

US regs only have a few options to play on. I avoid those sites and play on the those that block US players, ideally those linked with a sports betting or casino game element.

I'm only a recreational player myself but the games are still silly soft fri, sat night after pub hours.

I like the US players being "locked up" where I can avoid them.

That being said, the games have got tougher on these sites over the past couple of years and I think that will continue.

Euro sites (no so much sterling), can still be beaten for a good rate even without RB

The games will only get tougher due to bad legislation.

Currently the games are good and very beatable. Worse than early 2000's? Sure, but getting tougher? No, not really. Poker is getting huge in spain/russia/brazil etc. and bringing in tons of new depositors. The situation in the US obviously sucks, but it could be worse.

exponential is more like the world population, not how you describe it...

This is where a lot of people's logic drops off. The assumption that because economies fluctuate, that they therefore will return to previous levels, is fallacious and wrong. People always hinge on this idea of equilibrium, often forgetting that equilibrium ≠previous equilibrium. There is the very real possibility that demand for a product will never reach previous levels – and that it will not experience growth similar to previous periods (in fact, in most situations, this is the most likely case). This is the wrinkle in Keynes’ brilliant theories; perpetual growth is impossible.

There is also the fact that economists often look at GDP as an indicator of PPP or standard of living, which is blatantly out of touch with reality. Per capita GDP – the sum of all economic transactions over the sum of all people – tells a story of the big economic players (corporations and governments – who themselves are siphoning purchasing power to themselves from individuals), not the story of everyday individuals (i.e. poker players). This tends to skew reality in favor of a more optimistic economic outlook (“there is the possibility that things will get better”) than actually exists.

If you look at numbers from a macroeconomic standpoint, the issue is far larger than the crash of 2007 on. Wages have stagnated for several decades as costs of living have skyrocketed. The economy is not just going to “get better”. The economy may improve from the valley of the crash, but the idea that markets will improve in line with Keynesian ideals is quite silly indeed. I mean, ****, due to artificial stimulus, the economy hasn’t actually retracted in something like half a century (actually longer I believe – closer to 70 or 80 years, since the post-Depression era). What exactly makes people think that things will just miraculously continue to grow?

Absent game-changing events – of which U.S. legalization of online poker is one, albeit a small one – things aren’t getting better, in the context of economic matters. In a related matter, there is more money flowing in from BRIC (mainly Brazil, Russia, China) / other developing countries – which, due to individual economic incentives, results in less fish and more grinders. That is to say, I am quite sure that there are less fish, per capita, coming from developing countries NOW than there ever were coming from elsewhere. Considering the predominant wages in these countries, the incentive to be a nitty / rakeback micro-stakes grinder is far greater than for those in developed countries. And THAT is where player pool growth is happening. It did not surprise me at all to recently learn that Russians (I believe, can’t find the link now, it was in the zoo) were losing the least money of any country in online poker (or at least on the sites in question).

We all know that companys offer onlinepoker to make money..and a few players make money themselve.

The problem is that the companys are not interested to reduce there profit...i understand this

If you look to france the companys dont paid the tax they simple increased the rake.

Lets say the market is shrinking / higher taxed / but legalized....the companys loose profit. And what will the companys do ?

Reducing the rake / marketing effort ? I bet no.

They will increase the marketing efforts, reduce the benefits, increase the rake...result more players..more profit.. but less professional poker players.

If the market start to shrink i bet we see 7-9% rake soon.

easier. How could it get tougher? Everybody is "solid" already because of Pokerstrategy etc. but still weak enough to beat. The only way it will get tougher is when fishs won't deposit anymore but I don't think that this will happen as long as there is enough advertising...

Enjoyed the read but.......

What you don't like capitalism?

If out of every 100 people x percent are fish and there is 7 billion plus people then.....more monies to go around.

A sucker is born every 3.5 seconds.

People know the lottery is a horrible bet but every week the jackpot is 300 million.

The wages to cost of living ratio will always (on a long enough timeline ) find a equilibrium of sorts. Really bad things happen when it gets out of wack.

You sound smart so I'm sure you are a winning player but the game is going to get harder and now is the perfect time for you to get a Phd or something.

Alot worse I think thanks to eastern europe and russia, belarus and such they are just bringing money out of the game + they are nitting up micros ALOT the fish to grinder ratio from these countrys aer prolly ridicilous pokerstars should add like 1 eastern euirope player per table

I agree with this. They aren't great or somewhat good players but they are nitting it up and fill up LOTS of tables. Kills the dynamic and flow of the games.

The games will get easier, but who knows when?

To the person who said rake will increase? No it will not, PartyPoker will come back and there will probably be Harrah's Online Casino and others as well. There's even a good chance we see rake decreasing, to 3 or 4%. Competition is favorable to the customer.

I e-mailed PartyPoker about my partypoints (I had maybe 36k or so but never got to use them because they left the US market) and they said that the partypoints are still there and I'll be able to use/redeem them when the US allows partypoker back. No idea when this will happen though.

If PartyPoker is smart, they'll throw a bunch of bonuses at players like they used to back in 04-05. That should bring the recreational player online because who doesn't like "free money"!? Of course deposits have to be easy and quick, but with appropriate legislation this should be the case.

If there's going to be a black-out from online poker due to legislation coming into effect I would hope that they let PartyPoker operate with US players during the black-out for PokerStars and Full Tilt. This would be a way to reward PartyPoker for abiding by the UIGEA and because it's a publicly traded company (which US big wigs can then invest in and make money due to the next poker boom).

PartyPoker did right by us Americans before, so I have a feeling that they will do right by us again. My 36k~ points will probably even be redeemable for 1 cent per point, which would mean I have $360~ waiting for me when they return to the US! I also wouldn't be surprised to see a gift bonus to all US players who used to have at least decent activity on PartyPoker back when it operated. PartyPoker can literally gives millions and millions away, because they'll get the recreational US players hooked again, eventually get the large majority of that gift money back due to the rake, and draw significant market share away from Pokerstars/Full Tilt.

I also asked for interest on my points, but they politely declined my request.

If US gets nationally regulated online poker: Much easier

If a few states get intrastate poker: Bit harder, much easier on intrastate sites

If nothing changes: Bit harder each year

or make a special site for them all to play on like the .fr and .it ones

There are so few fish from these countries in the Party SNGs that you can basically make good early level decisions based purely off the location of Russia, Latvia, Ukraine, etc. I'd say the fish to regs (or reg-wannabes playing really tight) ratio is at 20:1 or more.

Oh how I would love to open a corner shop here in the UK and have a teleportation device installed at the doorway that brought in Norwegian customers... This is basically what these players are getting atm and even though I can sympathise with them, it really sucks for us western pros (I fully expect this will be the reason I leave poker).

Juk

It would be awesome if they did this. I don't think Party is going to get any favors from the government though just because they played nice after UIGEA. And you've made me wonder how many points I have on Party now. (too lazy to install and check though)

I agree with this. They aren't great or somewhat good players but they are nitting it up and fill up LOTS of tables. Kills the dynamic and flow of the games.



this times ten.
even if 90 pct of players suck software is getting better and better and easier to play 24 or whatever tables, more and more people are breaking even making rakeback so if 90 pct of players suck, and the rest are either break even nits or good players most seats on a site are occupied by either nits or good players.

players 5 years ago were a lot less knowledgeable- but back then it was easy as hell to get money on (fish arent going to jump thru hoops to deposit- neteller was as easy or easier to use than paypal) and you could only play 3-4 tables.

picture every old rock at your table in a casino
exploitable a little at a time sure
3-4 at your table is one thing
imagine sitting at a table with 8 of them
what would your hourly be? better yet how long before you blew your brains out from boredom? do you think tables like this enourage fish to play? fish want action- they all want to win- they all convince themselves they do win- but when every hand is a raise and take it or a contest to see which nit hit a set they find something else to do with their time.People play 24 tables, grind rakeback and wonder why tables are getting worse. This isnt some magical land where YOU are the only one able to play 24 tables (imagine it was 2004 and nobody else could do this)
Boring games where fish have no chance dont bring in new fish

When i first started playing hold em i was just learning. I played really tight both live and online. I played about 18 pct of my hands NINE OR TEN HANDED. And that was extremely tight. Now most players in 6 max dont even play that "loose"

Just want to add a near-worthless anecdote to this thread:

My girlfriend has grinded her Zynga bankroll to 4 million+ play chips after playing there for a long time, and recently decided to make a $20 deposit on Stars and has been playing micro MTTSNGs since then. She's definitely a fish, even at the micros, but enjoys playing. Thankfully in this state/with her bank, she was able to use eChecks without issue, but she would have never ended up on Stars if I wasn't here to assure her that everything was on the level with depositing.

Now imagine how many other Zynga players would consider giving real money poker a shot once legislation is in place and everything looks legitimate (established B&M brand online room, easy deposits). US legislation is a huge factor in answering the question.

its not that hard to deposit a few hundred bucks
its nearly impossible to deposit tens ouf thousands
people used to lose 20-30k in a weekend like it was nothing
these days you cant get that kind of money online- as a result the higher games start drying up which has a huge trickel down effect

i think it will get easier then it will get harder

I went on zynga poker the other day, talking trash to everyone I saw. Was trying so hard to get them to met up with me on a REAL poker site, but to no avail Most of these guys are underage. I don't think its the fact that its so hard to withdraw, but the fact that these guys are just mostly young. I think its a good outlet though, for a new generation being raised with an interest in playing cards.