I haven't played on WSEX in several years and had about $25 in there from the last time I played there... I recently rediscovered that I had left some money there so (after running it up to a little over $100 betting some football games) I decided to play some poker... While I was playing some low stakes no limit some people were talking about how they thought Chucky79 (who was sitting alone at a 1/2 Limit game) was a bot... I had read alot of the discussion on 2+2 about how they had in the past alleged bots over there and was surprised that they would still allow it to occur... I then sat with Chucky79 at 1/2 Limit and proceeded to play for two hours against him just posting the SB on the button, playing the hand, then sitting out and waiting to receive the SB and button again... This pattern continued while I played him from 1:02 AM to 1:06 AM on the 24th (I quit and tried one or two of the players at a high stakes table, who responded and quit me before we had even played a hand or after one hand and to reread some of the commentary about the situation from before) and restarted playing against Chucky79 at 1:54 AM till 3:45 AM... During this whole time he never once quit playing me or said a word in chat... At that time he called me the cheater, sat out in the middle of a hand (he actually exploited the all-in protection with second pair or something ) and told me he was going to report me to the fraud department...

I obviously didn't take this threat seriously and continued to occasionally play tourneys and NL cash at WSEX until this morning when I discovered I was locked out of WSEX's pokerroom... Here is my live chat session from with WSEX this morning...

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): blocked from pokerroom (error 11)


You are now speaking with Anika of Poker/Casino/FSE.

Anika: hello

Anika: how may i assist you?

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): Hi, I'm getting an error 11 (blocked) when I try and log into the pokerroom...

Anika: can i please get your user name for your account

Anika: thank you

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): no problem... HerbieWE

Anika: one moment please

Anika: i'm transferring you to my supervisor

Anika: please hold

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): thanks...

Please hold while being transferred to Christopher of Poker/Casino/FSE.

You are now speaking with Christopher of Poker/Casino/FSE.

Christopher: Hello Aaron , My name is Christopher. Welcome to WSEX Poker LiveChat Service. How may I assist you at this time?

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): When I log into the poker software I get an message saying I'm blocked (error 11)

Christopher: We've been reviewing your play history with us and we've noticed that while playing heads up your missing big blinds for every hand. Can you let us know why your doing this?

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): yea, the guy I was playing was a bot and I was taking advantage of that...

Christopher: Why would you think that your opponent was a bot? Also, if you think customers you're playing against are bots why aren't you reporting them?

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): Because I played him for several hours and never played a BB and he continued to play... Nobody would do that if they were there... I'm not going to BS you I read all the forums for years about the limit bots on WSEX... I decide to play here and was really surprised that they were still allowed on your site..

Christopher: Aaron that customer you played against was NOT a bot.

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): lol... why did he continue to let me play the way I did for over two hours and never said a word in chat until he stopped it at that time?

Christopher: He's been with us for a while now and I'm familiar with his history. We do NOT allow bots at our tables here at WSEX Poker.

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): Can you explain why he would let me play the SB for over two hours then?

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): and never said a word till he quit me?

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): two hours later?

Christopher: Ok you guys played for about 2 hours but that doesn't excuse the fact that you miss the big blind everytime it was your turn.

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): A human would not do this... Obviously it is a huge advantage and a human would have quit within a hand or two...

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): Can you please explain why it took him two hours to quit me with it was clear that I was exploiting him?

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): I wanted to prove he was a bot and did... Obviously I was exploiting that fact... There is one justifiable reason why he would continue to play when it was clear that I was exploiting him...

Christopher: Will we've contacted both of you for the actions that took place at the table and we're investigating the entire matter. We just wanted to get your side of the story

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): I don't think you can explain to me why he did what he did... If you going to ban me thats fine... I'm going to post all of this in several forums regardless if you ban me or not...

Christopher: We are NOT banning you from our site Aaron

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): There is nothing to instigate on my side I thought he was a bot and exploited it and if you want to ban me you can...

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): investigate..

Christopher: This matter is being investigated so both accounts were closed

Christopher: I sent all the information to our Technical Support Team to evaluate what happened

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): What is being investigated then? You already told me WSEX knows he isn't a bot and I explained my actions and admitted that I was exploited him...

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): Am I banned from the poker room or not?

Christopher: Aaron you are NOT banned

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): so I can play in the pokerroom still?

Christopher: Please give us some time for our Technical Support Team to properly investigate what happened and get back to us

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): I'm also still going to post this in the forums regardless if I'm allowed to play or not btw...

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): When can I find out the status of the ruling?

Christopher: Aaron, as I said both accounts were closed first thing when we looked at the hands

Christopher: The information was sent to our Technical Support Team for further evaluation

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): There isn't much to look at... I only posted the small blind for over two hours and he never stopped playing me or complained...

Christopher: As far as we know chucky79 is NOT a bot but that is still left to be determined from this most recent event

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): Okay... well again I'm not going to BS you I'm posting this whole incident to twoplustwo and sbr... Can I get an email when the investigation is concluded?

Christopher: Yes you will receive an e-mail once the investigation is complete.

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): Thanks, alot Chistopher... I appreciate the assistance... >>

OK

obv a bot...then when the owner of the bot saw what was going on 2 hours later he quit...the way their support was defending him makes me believe that it might be their bot. i would not play on that site

His play and timing was almost identical to this video... http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...4375688672713# In fact at one point I realized I was being too aggressive against him (I don't typically play limit) given my perpetual positional advantage and used something I saw in the video successfully against him a couple times...

did you beat him? for how much?

haha why would the bot owner report you? how can he possibly expect them to not figure out that he was a bot?

According to pokertracker I played him 120 hands and won $23.5 plus a couple dollars in rakeback ($9.79 BB per/100 hands)... I was actually down at first before I realized that there was no reason to extremely aggressive against him given I had a button everytime and he had some strong tendencies... I also admit I was planning on taking a shot at him again (given a chance) or some of the higher ups who I thought might be bots but I didn't have enough money on WSEX to do it yet..

How many tables were you playing at the time?

Any idea how many tables (the bot) was playing?

LOL, I didn't think he would report me either but WSEX was already aware of him and knew "that customer... was NOT a bot." ... Well at least until later in the chat when he remembered that we both were still be investigated...

I don't see how Chucky79 can make any money like this. It is really hard to beat 1/2 heads up limit without some intensive game selection because of the rake. And if he isn't programmed to sit out against somebody playing only buttons, how good can his game selection be?

I was playing a couple other tourneys on other sites... There were hardly any games going on WSEX and different "players" sitting alone at the higher up limit tables so I'm pretty sure this was the only table on WSEX he had going (not 100% sure though)...

Oftentimes people use all caps ("NOT") to try to force through some statement that they have no real justification for. I wonder if that's what is going on here, or if the support software just converts not to NOT automatically ?

Isn't this a problem with WSEX software not keeping track of the button? Do stars/FTP let the new player have the button every hand?

You don't get the button every time... It is assigned randomly after someone sits out a hand and sits back in... Obviously you can have it everytime if you are playing heads up and the other player doesn't want it (or not programmed to recognize what is happening...)

I think this situation is hilarious

Ethically I see nothing wrong with what you did. "He" was willing to let you play the button the whole match. It's not something that just goes unnoticed by an actual opponent.

and by him complaining and quitting 2 hours in, its pretty obv he was a bot.

this

Okay, I need to go do some work at the sites that I'm not being investigated at and able to play on but I will update the situation later... I'm clearly willing to be 100% open and answer any questions about this situation... Hopefully we will see that WSEX is wiling to do the same thing...

It appears that at least one of your objectives has been met.

WSEX sounds like a dreadful place to play. A wasteland of bots and nits.

is what you were doing a) unethical or b) against the rules?

WSEX has very high rakeback (it was 100% at one time, but 70-75% now IIRC).

Juk

As I told Christopher on live chat I posted a thread over at SBR as well (it's a sportsbook watch dog site)... This is my response to someone asking there about the hand histories...

<< I have the hand histories I played against him... I would post them but they put each hand in a separate file (according to pokertracker there were 120) and would be alot of work to cut and paste them all together... There isn't really much to see except me only playing the sb and button repetitively against him (and how badly I play at limit hold 'em)... The video above is basically how the play went and if anyone really wants see them I can post them as a zip file somewhere so I don't have to cut and paste all of them together... Obviously, if I don't get my money back (I only have a little over $200 in there now .. Plus am also owed a little over $30 in rakeback and I qualified for the weekly VIP tourney that is worth like $20-25) I will be submitting a complaint to SBR but right now it looks WSEX has just locked me out of their poker software as I can still see my balance in the sportsbook and I was able to place a small test bet on the football game tonight...

Right now I'm more interested in how WSEX is going to respond to having bots playing on their site despite claiming they dealt with this years ago... From what little I played there this week it looks like the NL games are kindof soft but with their cashout problems it won't be a big lose to me if they don't want my action... >>

wow very shady.

But awesome chat with support. Way to just tell them to go **** themselves

I personally don't think what I was doing was unethical or I wouldn't have done it as he could have quit playing me at anytime... And I'm very interested in knowing what the reason he didn't quit me was...

Others may disagree with me though as I was clearly taking a shot based on how the software worked and because I was playing someone who didn't seem interested (in two hours) in the fact that I was only playing the SB and the button...

Their rules state that "Players who attempt to avoid posting their blinds by jumping in and out of a game may lose their playing privileges at World Sports Exchange." If WSEX wants to take away my playing privileges then I can live with that but I hope they also address the rest of their rules equally...

<<Our proprietary security-monitoring-system software is constantly upgraded to adapt to the ever-changing online environment. We have implemented security features designed to detect automated programs that enable the use of artificial intelligence at our poker tables. The use of such “bot” software programs violates our Terms and Conditions of Use, and is detrimental to other players. Our software monitors a number of predetermined variables. If a flag is raised on a suspicious account, our security analysts will conduct further investigation.

Disclaimer
We cannot fully divulge the details of how our process and tools work in guarding against both collusion and “bots.” The detection of each requires a different set of standards, and divulging information of this kind could compromise our ability to prevent such rules violations in the future.

If any player is suspected of either cheating or collusion, his account is immediately frozen pending further investigation by our security staff. If this investigation determines that collusion has occurred or that a “bot” or another form of illegal software has been used in play, the account will be terminated WITHOUT the release of that player’s funds. We can then distribute those funds among our other players through a variety of means.

Our customers are of course our first line of defense against illegal play, and are always encouraged to notify us immediately of any suspicious behavior they may observe. Should you suspect that players are acting together during play, please forward the game information (including the hand # or #'s and the screen names of the players in question) and any comments you may have to support@worldpx.com. We will closely scrutinize any suspected case of collusion and take prompt and decisive action whenever necessary. >>

http://www.wsex.com/poker/room-rules.html
http://www.wsex.com/poker/collusion.html

Unethical.....only if you think its wrong to kick a guy in the junk if he pulls a knife on you. Well done OP.... this is beautiful irony.

wow after getting owned by a video up on google, you'd think the bot runner would have at least fixed the issue - you know, have a "if we play 3 BBs in a row, quit!" failsafe.

If wsex is not running this bot, they at least clearly do very little to detect and close bot-runners accounts.

good job OP, thanks for the heads up, you did absolutely nothing wrong, ethically or otherwise, you owned a botrunner, then you owned wsex in chat, nh wp. I hope your account is unlocked and you can cash out whatever balance you have.