then they came for the limit players

and i did not speak out

Responses to two comments numerous people have made:

1: Increase the min buyin.

Fish like to buyin min. This is not a reasonable solution.

2: People should not have their money confiscated for playing in a botlike manner.

There's one major problem here. If FTP never confiscates funds in these sort of cases, then they have absolutely zero deterrence to botting. In fact, downloading and running a shortstacking bot would suddenly be 100% +EV if they never confiscated funds.

I have no suggestions about a reasonable solution, but I think its clear they need to be confiscating funds a reasonable percent of the time.

I play them and find that shortstackers either lose money or barely win thanks to rakeback.

A shortstacking ratholer is no match in profitability to a strong player that covers the biggest fish.

And I think the word "infested" is a bit strong lol. I'm looking at the 5/10 FR on FTP right now, and across 3 tables I count 1 or 2 shortstackers (not even checking to see if they're fish or not). Looking at 2/4 FR and below and there are almost none, and they're probably just fish buying in for minimum.

I don't like shortstackers/ratholers either, in fact I think they're the lowest form of winning poker player and I'd prefer if they didn't exist, but they're not a major threat and they really do not win very much money at all.

Another problem here is there is a desirable demographic that ratholes. A fish doubles up or gets above a certain amount and moves to another table. This is ratholing in every sense of the word, but I don't think anybody would have any problem with it and FTP certainly doesn't want fish to think there's even a remote chance they might be doing something wrong.

Again, I think it has more to do with the reason than the action itself. Fish do it since they don't want to lose all that money. "Pro shortstackers" do it since they're unable to continue playing 100% robotically once they double and would be forced to begin actually playing poker.

i still cant believe FT hasnt responded here its really disappointing seeing as i have the majority of my bankroll on their site..

What would you like them to say? I'm pretty sure all they would do is verify that this player is banned and they're standing behind their decision, but cannot elaborate further since they need to ensure the integrity of their security measures. Basically what they already stated in their emails posted in this thread.

I'm seeing more and more and MORE of it and have been the last few months at 1-2nl and .5-1nl

These are the only stakes where it really makes sense because you need dozens of tables running to rathole and get high volume in. IIRC even on Stars with more tables running than FTP, curtains had trouble playing more than a couple of hours straight at 2-4 or above because he had no tables left to join.

3. Figure out how to distinguish bots from real players. As usual, Stars appears to be light-years ahead of FTP in this area.

They could start by reassuring us that they give a flying **** about false positives, and that those of us playing a high volume in the more "robotic" styles (STTs, short-stacking) need not be concerned about spaz bannings, and maybe working with selected members of the extremely knowledgeable and sophisticated 2+2 community to improve their processes (eg Stars hiring Josem). Maybe empty words, but at least it would be something.

INTERNET POKERS...."JUST TRUST IT"

LOFL BYE BYE INTERNET POKERS.

Pineapple, a player who is playing a sufficiently robotic strategy would be impossible to distinguish from a bot. Poker Stars takes a more conservative approach, banning only blatantly obvious 100% bots meaning they are likely leaving a number of bots at their tables. Full Tilt is [ostensibly at least] taking a much more aggressive approach and banning those players partaking in extremely bot-like play meaning they are likely to experience some number of false positives.

I don't think either philosophy is superior. The bottom line is that it's a great thing that US players still have options. If you want to shortstack/pushbot then Stars is obviously the place to play.

On the first point I disagree, start a deep NL table on FT. The first 7 players who sit are 90% sure to be fish (and not just weak players - proper spew fish).
Increasing the min buyin on all NL cash games is by far and away the most obvious and easiest solution to this whole mess.

Second point I agree and I think Full Tilt have the correct balance struck as outlined by FTP Sean in the other thread;

So yeah if the OP is telling the truth then he should get the benefit of the doubt with regard to his roll.

Honestly there are a lot of people who have not bothered to do any research or thought things through but have just responded with "OMFG the sites are doing something they must be wrong" syndrome.
(Note - that last comment not directed at Dire at all)




OK, this one is often misunderstood.
Go to your databases or the tracking sites, look at all the breakeven short stacks - LOL at their winrates.
Their winrate isn't important, look at how much money they paid in rake - it's often several thousand bb. Now that money may not come from solid players but it comes from the fish.
That money has left the player pool and gone to the sites profits, that's why I think having rathole infested games is bad. (of course this is a secondary issue to the bot problem)

Also, yeah at the mid-high stakes it's less of a problem because collectively the players make it difficult, small stakes games are infested though.

Good luck man..

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...athole-374072/


What is the difference?

Elaborate further? They haven't elaborated at all. They are simply too vague. Maybe they could tell him exactly what it is that they believe he has done? How does this compromise their security? Do you think it's unreasonable to ask them to respond to OP's emails with a more detailed explanation when he has been shutdown for almost two weeks now? This is like being arrested and going before a judge and the judge says, "John Doe, you are accused of breaking the law. How do you plea?"

They need to say SOMETHING to SOMEBODY. WTF? Complete silence is acceptable? If somebody locked down 100% of my roll without a detailed explanation as to why and some sort of timetable as to when it would be resolved, I would be in red-hot-seething rage by now.

People seem to be much more concerned with FTP's practice of seizing rolls first and asking questions later than they are with Stars approach to the problem. Maybe FTP should reassess their system of enforcement.

+1.

I really think they should just increase the minimum buy in to 100 big blinds for NLHE games.

A number of others in this thread have said the same thing. But offering a 20bb min-buy in, and then being surprised that programs are taking advantage of the mechanical strategy that makes playing a 20 bb stack profitable at a 100bb table with a mix of stack sizes is like the chief of police in Casablanca closing Rick's place because he's "shocked to find that there gambling is going on," as he is pocketing his roullette winnings.

Raising the min-buy in is the way for the sites to combat bots. That would be much better than what they did to the OP.

Sucks that my 1500th post is in this thread.

Here's a draft of the email I'll be sending to Full Tilt today:

For reference, the email I'm replying to is found in the OP (last quote in the post).

Any input on the composition, language used, points made, etc. would be greatly appreciated, here or via PM. Grammar nazis welcome.

I realize that any discussion of anything related to shortstacking on 2+2 will quickly devolve into a circular argument, as it has here, but I'd really like it to not. The point of this thread is to give as much information on Full Tilt's lack of transparency in this investigation. Shortstacking is the likely reason I was marked as a bot, but the principle of the matter is that a player has been banned without any kind of evidence or communication.

Discussion of how to combat bots or eliminate shortstacking, while fascinating, is counter-productive in this thread. We need for people to be able to come to this thread and quickly assess the situation and form their opinions. I may be way off on this.

I'm playing a gig tonight, so I'll likely be sending this off at 4pm local (3 hours from now), and I won't be back in the thread until tomorrow.

Thanks.

huh? I've never played sets longer than 30-40 minutes. I've never even bothered trying to play that long, because I get bored.

Oops, it must have been somebody else. The point remains.

My apologies for taking your name in vain.

It all looks fine to me, I'd recommend leaving it as-is in you own words, rather than listening to any writing style nits.

Sober,

The letter is direct, professional & to the point. I'm not a fan of

I will be contacting both the Kahnawake and the Alderney Gaming Commissions on this matter

as I believe that is not only implied but will also be included in your next response to Tilt should this 'official final review' fall on deaf ears. In the FTP case that included banning & eventual closing (with confiscation of funds) an independent expert was brought in to examine the "evidence" (which I believe to be largely based on timing of bets) & I believe this is something you should request. The specific case eventually was ruled by the expert to be "a bot" & the funds were confiscated (& this case involved a larger sum $80k+ IIRC) but it's worth a shot if this is your last chance. Sending in the hard-drive is an excellent suggestion providing it's untouched/formatted by you; even a mediocre security expert would be able to tell what you've been doing in regards to any illegal activity on Tilt.

As far as short-stacking goes, it should be left out of this thread because it's clearly allowed in the rules.

Best of luck,

Pappy

Gl Sober. I certainly hope everything works out for you (although it doesn't sound promising.)