sinner - Before you rip on people for paying fees on smaller cashouts perhaps you should attempt to find out IF they are actually paying fees on smaller cashouts.

There are no fees for withdrawing on Stars with e-checks. None. The maximum e-check cashout is $2500. It's pretty easy.

No fees for cashing out with a paper check either. There is a $30 fee generally for cashing out via wire which I've done before and then thought, "this is silly. I can cashout for free if I take out $2k three different times via e-checks instead of $6k at one time via wire."

I don't know what the fees are for some of the other forms of cashout because I've never done them.

I've seen another factor, that hasn't really been mentioned, being demonstrated ITT. Even for people who know better, rake isn't the only deciding factor. And the fish content isn't either. I've seen at least 2 or 3 non-US players post in here that play on Stars or FT, even though they could get a lot more of their rake back, likely on softer sites, but don't. I don't think it's out of ignorance, or at least not completely so. It's probably because they like the player volume and/or the software and/or some other factors. Sites that have good reputations, large player bases, and good software can get away with charging a little more to play there.

I really didn't try all that hard.

As MB said, you're making some big assumptions. My costs are exactly the same if I make 1 cashout or 10. I suspect that's the same for a lot of people. Not everyone, but a lot of them. And why would it be unwise to be a micro stakes professional poker player? For some people, $2,000 a month might be enough to get by, and they might like to cash out more than once every 2-3 months. And of course there's plenty of people who play semi-professionaly while working full-time, or those who do it for a hobby but still make a little money.

But why on earth would you leave the whole 10K online when you could leave say3K online to play and 7K in the bank earning interest and reload if things go south. The money doesn't have to be physically in your poker account to be a part of your bankroll. You think all the guys playing 100/200 at FTP keep 100BI online?

I get charged the same fees from Stars/my bank if I withdraw $10 or $10K with the method I use.

Also some players like to move money around to take advantage of bonuses etc.


I think your very shortsighted in the reality of things for a lot of players.

Because depositing is a bitch, ldo. Also I like to tell people I've never deposited a penny.

imo this is the problem with the current system. In my first 2 years of playing poker, I was just completely stuck in 2/4 and 3/6 (LHE). I paid around $20k in rake and made something like $2k. It was only in my second year that I even thought about rake as a factor and looked for good deals. Now feel free to flame me for being so ignorant but most people when starting out have no clue of the affect of rake and even if they did wouldn't have the energy to hunt down the best deals - they just want to play poker.

I have a moral issue with a site taking 90% (and would have been 100% if I couldn't beat the game for 5BB/100) of my winnings over this period as it just feels kind of underhanded. We recently had a scandal here in South Africa regarding a furniture store that was offering terms that gave them around 300% profit over 2 years payment. Yes the people who bought should have investigated how much they really will pay but they were invariably poor people who just didn't know any better. The consumer has a right to a fair deal.

During my first 2 years I was a reasonably competent player but if you had put me into a current 10/20 game I would have been absolutely destroyed as I could only beat a table with five 70/0 fish on it. (ah those heady days) So if the rake structure had been kinder for me the small stakes player, I might have moved up quickly to a limit where I was the one providing good action.

At my current limit of 10/20, I can accept what I'm personally paying in terms of BB/100, my concern is that the low limit players are being completely fleeced by the site and have little chance of feeding these higher limits which is unhealthy for sustainability of the industry in general. Change the low stakes rake to something beatable like 2BB/100 and watch the games improve across the board imo.

(um I'll just jump the gun here and flame myself here for coming across as a moral fellow looking out for the little guy when all I want is the little guy to jump into my limit. We're all looking out for no 1 in the end...)

Looking at it as the site taking 90% of your winnings is not really correct and certainly isn't analogous to the 300% furniture store rip-off. It assumes that you deserve to win at a certain rate. And you don't deserve to win period. This isn't to say that the rake is difficult at the stakes you are playing though.

You could play a zillion hands on some site that charges you $10/mth for all the poker you can play. If you only made $100 in total over the same amount of play (partly because the competition on such a site is certain to be tougher) then they made a much smaller percentage off of you yet YOU ended up making less money.

Seriously, if it means that much to you then go to some prop site where you can get 80% or 100% rakeback or whatever. You'll be paying less rake or even no rake. Yet there's a pretty fair chance you'll only do marginally better than on the higher rake sites (and I think the only chance for you to do better is if you always played 4 tables or fewer anyway).

Bob, my post was talking about my situation in my first 2 years of playing and I'm currently in my 4th year. It's funny you mention propping because that is exactly what turned me around from a breakeven player to a very profitable one with no change in skillset.

As I said, my concern is not so much for myself at this point but for the industry in general. (which is indeed concern for myself in terms of my livelihood as I play full time)

Maybe for American's. Not for people from other parts of the world.

rapala - It's entirely possible your abilities have improved too. But if you are the type to focus on just 2 or 3 tables or something and especially if you are a really tight player then it's not surprising you would do better on a 100% RB prop type site then on a site like Stars where the rake is tough and the rakeback for medium to low volume is not very high.

I have indeed put a lot of work into my game and think I've improved a lot since I first started propping. It was just a pretty fantastic moment for me when I made more in my first month of propping than I had in my previous 2 years at 'insert major site'. (btw I've always played a maximum of 3-4 tables - too old and slow at 34 for more than that I guess )

I apologize if I sounded ignorant.

But the exchange rate losses changing your money from US$ to local currency and then back again if you had to redeposit would be an absolute bitch.

don't disagree with that, but it bankroll management is different for different people.


My point was that people aren't idiots for withdrawing smaller amounts and it went a bit off that track

rapala - I'm 38 and play 20+ tables.

i stand corrected.

lol.. every argument on here seems to try to turn into a pissing match which i can never win

true, i'm just saying i think if someone has $6.9k online, they should keep it there and try to move up to say, 1/2, at which point you are making a really sick "salary" if you're a winner (also, yes, you can make a living playing smaller, and i did that once, and its tough.. i wouldnt recommend it to other people). yes, you could withdraw like 4k of that, but then if you go on a downswing you're gonna be that much more scared of busting and having to redeposit. i know, it shouldn't be a fear, but it is, and imo it makes u play worse.

[x] sinner

Lol, and why should you keep your whole roll on a poker site? If I would play 50NL (4 tables) then I'd keep $400 online. Not more.

you are entitled to your opinion, which is where you and i disagree.

Exactly.
LHE games are dying and imo thats one of the main reasons.

heh ok u got me, I`m just slow then.

Ok then, I think the answer is before us! I also think we as pro's have basically been doing this anyway. Give lower rake to those who ask, or are aware, and want it. IE: rakeback. Vip rewards, that sort of thing.

I've been able to pay pretty much what I think is a fair price. I've "brought" my game to the local casino and was able to get a better deal on it then the "regular" games playing right next to us. I did this by talking to the poker room manager, and actually it took a bit of work and a little time but when he realized he would get a game that he would NOT have otherwise, it became good bus. sense to give in to our requests. I won't go into too much detail because my post is long enough but if you have any questions I'll expand in a different post.

As for online I've got rakeback, Ironman, FTP's, and an occasional bonus. Although this isnt where i "make my money" it definitely adds up. I haven't added the numbers up but just a quick thought tells me it's at least 20k a year.

My main issue in these "rake debates" has been that in the past there has been an indifference to rake or questioning it. Just read some of the past threads and you'll see that even 2+2ers aren't always aware of rake and it's affect on the person and the game as a whole.

Here's the thing. Be aware of the rake. Make sure you are at least covering yourself. Stand up for the game, it's the old give them an inch and they'll take a mile. Question it, don't just let them do whatever they want. I guarantee there are sites that have looked over these types of threads to get a "feel" of the community. If we just defend it to the tee we will leave them wondering if they can raise the rate, or why they haven't yet.

Also, did anyone read the link I posted a couple pages back? That kind of kills the "they wont lower rake because fish don't care about rake" argument. The fact is the thread targeted an issue and it was resolved. BECAUSE 2+2 came together on an issue. Please don't ever think something is "un-touchable", or "if it could have been done it would have", or "market driven". Bullsht, WE ARE THE MARKET, ALL OF US.

In summery, take care of yourself first. Get yourself all "hooked up". At the same time don't just let a screwing happen right in front of you. It's like the time I was playing live at hollywood park years ago and a reg walked up to me from another table and whispered in my year that he noticed we were playing 6 handed and that I should ask for a lower drop. I did, and it was lowered. See the thing is that was a common thing for the casino to do but YOU HAD TO ASK FOR IT. I've even had dealers hint that I should ask, as they are not allowed to lower it on their own.

Ok, my summery wasn't even a summery and my post is now tl;dr. I just have a lot to say on the issue, but I'll leave it again.

Good thread guys.

I'm just posting to say that i know that ^^^ post is tl;dr, but I hope you guys will read it.

Rake structure seems like the only viable/appropriate business model for the poker industry.... but the two models that seem great to me are a monthly fee to another system that only taxes winning cashout amounts.

I thought it was ql;ra.