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Account frozen on Pokerstars for receiving funds from a wrong'n Account frozen on Pokerstars for receiving funds from a wrong'n

05-22-2015 , 11:39 AM
tl;dr:
-receive a few k in transfers from a particular player from fund swaps
-a couple months later I get an email from Pokerstars saying my account is locked due to the association I have with that person's account.
-submit multiple pieces of evidence supporting my uninvolvement from any wrong doing, yet account remains locked due to the fact that whatever issues exist with the original account have not be resolved yet.

Stars SN: Lake Dredger

Hi all, on March 12 I received this email from stars:
Quote:
Dear xxxx,

Due to your close association with the player 'Bigboifanboy' we have removed your playing privileges. We cannot take the risk that the related player could gain access to our tables via your account.

It is unfortunate that you have become a victim of this player's actions, however, please understand this policy is in place to protect the integrity of our games.

We apologize for any inconvenience caused.

Note: Please do not attempt to create any other accounts as doing so is a violation of our Terms of Service. If we discover a new account, it will be closed without notice and you will be liable for any loss that could occur and the remaining funds could be confiscated.

Kind regards,

Karl
PokerStars Security Investigations Team
I responded with a couple emails explaining the nature of the transfers and asking about more details related to the original issues. I was met with these responses:

Quote:
Hello xxxx,

Thank you for your mail.

Your explanation of the incident have been noted.

However, the resolution will still stand and due to the relationship between your account and accounts previously mentioned, your account shall remain closed. (Until issues have been resolved with the original account).

Please let us know if we can assist you further.

Regards,

Karl
PokerStars Security Investigation Team
Quote:
Dear Travis,

Thank you for your email,

Unfortunately for security reasons, we cannot provide you with any further information other than what has been previously provided.

Once the issues on the associated accounts have been resolved, we will reinstate your account.

Thank you for your understanding.

Kind Regards,
After this there were a handful of more emails exchanged, with the gist of all of them being myself asking for my account to be unfrozen, and with stars giving the same generic stonewalling response.

Something that I thought would be a resolution came a few days ago when I received this email from stars:

Quote:
Dear xxxx,

Thank you for your mail.

We are unable to phone you regarding this matter.

As previously explained, regrettably, we will not be able to fully reinstate your account until the issues in account 'Bigboifanboy' are resolved due to your association with this player. Although we do not imply any wrongdoing, we would prefer if all related PokerStars account holders have settled their matter with us.

To assist in reinstating your account, please have this player contact us to settle the outstanding issue with their PokerStars account.

We apologize for this inconvenience and trust that you understand our position in this matter.

Kind regards,
I was actually able to contact the person who was behind the issue account, and got this picture from him:


I sent another response to stars offering to repay the measely 20 pound chargeback this player supposedly did (ldo). I also asked them if it was ok if I still used full tilt account. This was the reply.

Quote:
Hello xxxx,

Thank you for your mail.

Unfortunately that is not the case as we then would request it. The amounts are related to the funds that was transferred to your own account from this player and this is also why your account will remain closed until this have been settled.

Please note that your Full Tilt account will unfortunately also remain restricted until these issues have been resolved.

We apologize for this inconvenience and trust that you understand our position in this matter.

Regards,

Karl
PokerStars Security Investigation Team
So over 2 months after my stars account is frozen, and only after I ask them, they decide I am such a security threat that my full tilt account needs to be frozen as well! (it was only just locked this morning). And I am still left in the dark as to the real reason why my account was locked.

Ultimately, I made this thread since talking to the security person was like talking to a brick wall. It seems as if the fact I am innocent is irrelevant, and my account is only banned due to some sort of administrative policy.

Last edited by Bad Luck Brian; 05-22-2015 at 11:57 AM.
Account frozen on Pokerstars for receiving funds from a wrong'n Quote
05-22-2015 , 12:03 PM
Just to clarify a few points.

You said you received a few k from this player. Over what time span did these transfers occur? Was it a staking deal... did he owe you money in real life?

Do you know this person in real life?
What games did he play and what games do you play?
Ever played at the same tables?
Has your money being confiscated as well as being banned? How much money if both?


Based on the emails that Stars sent you it seems this guy did a number of chargebacks and with that money he sent it to you.
Account frozen on Pokerstars for receiving funds from a wrong'n Quote
05-22-2015 , 12:05 PM
Were your FTP and Stars accounts linked together so you could do transfers between them?

Sounds like the funds you received from this player had been obtained fraudulently by the player

How do you know him? How did you come about to do the transfers with him? Has he ever used your computer or shared an IP address with you (played from your house, etc)?

fwiw, its standard to lock accounts like this by sites
Account frozen on Pokerstars for receiving funds from a wrong'n Quote
05-22-2015 , 12:16 PM
Quote:
You said you received a few k from this player. Over what time span did these transfers occur? Was it a staking deal... did he owe you money in real life?
These funds were sent to me as swaps from funds on another site. We do not know each other in real life, we were only online acquaintances.
Quote:
What games did he play and what games do you play?
Afaik he was just some degen guy who would play anything from 10nl-1knl depending on what was in his account. I was a reg at 100nl at the time.
Quote:
Ever played at the same tables?
I believe i played something like 20 hands at 100nl with him once for the sake of killing time.
Quote:
Has your money being confiscated as well as being banned? How much money if both?
Apart from some FPPs, I had nothing on stars at the time.

Here is the email I sent to stars right after my account was frozen. It does a lot as far as explaining the situation.

Quote:
Hello,

Id like to dispute this and provide an explanation of my relationship with this player. I met him on another pokersite and he was one of the larger fish on the site. The games on this site were played in a non-fiat currency, and I would frequently swap the in game currency on that site for stars money with the player in question. I tried my best to keep him in action on the other site and maintain a friendly relationship due to the amount he lost on a consistent basis, and a lot of that involved doing the aforementioned swaps with that player.

I am not sure what this person did to warrant him being banned, but it is worth noting that he scammed me out of ~2k late December/early January, and I no longer speak with that individual (this is supported by the fact that there have been no transfers between us since roughly that time). With that in mind, I am not suprised that he may have done something unethical. From my point of view, it seems exceptionally unjust that not only was I victimized by this individual, but I am now also banned from the world's largest poker site because of him.

Although I havent played very much on stars lately, I would very much like to return to the site sometime in the future. If you have any questions or comments about the explanation I gave, I would be very interested in addressing them.

Thanks and regards,
Account frozen on Pokerstars for receiving funds from a wrong'n Quote
05-22-2015 , 12:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Luck Brian
"The amounts are related to the funds that was transferred to your own account from this player and this is also why your account will remain closed until this have been settled."
Is Stars using Nigerian scammers for their customer support now?
Account frozen on Pokerstars for receiving funds from a wrong'n Quote
05-22-2015 , 01:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmarrsouth
Were your FTP and Stars accounts linked together so you could do transfers between them?

Sounds like the funds you received from this player had been obtained fraudulently by the player

How do you know him? How did you come about to do the transfers with him? Has he ever used your computer or shared an IP address with you (played from your house, etc)?

fwiw, its standard to lock accounts like this by sites
Yes, my ftp and stars were linked. Him and I shared nothing of the sort and we were only online acquaintances.

It's plausible that the funds he sent me were obtained illegitimately, but I dont think it's the responsibility of the recipient to vet that. If he had sent money to sauce or forhaley, would they have been banned as well? It is also worth noting that I've done something like ~10k worth of transfers with multiple different people. It's not like he was the only person I have ever received a large amount from.
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05-22-2015 , 02:01 PM
Thread title doesn't describe what happened here. I thought you'd received funds by accident!

Post #4 was more helpful.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but cliffs would be more like:
* OP transferred money to a degen on another network.
* Degen transferred money to OP on Stars.
* Degen broke some of Stars' rules (not known or detailed, but included making a chargeback that led to Stars being out of pocket), so he was banned.
* Stars support locked OP's account, apparently because he has a "close association" with the degen.
* OP claims he barely knows the degen, was scammed by him, and no longer talks to him.

It appears that Stars has an official policy of closing the accounts of people that associate with (or receive transfers from) scammers. Whether that's a good policy to use in all similar cases is debatable, but Stars is in a very tricky position.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Luck Brian
It's plausible that the funds he sent me were obtained illegitimately, but I dont think it's the responsibility of the recipient to vet that.
In the UK, handling stolen money is a criminal offence. Losing your right to play on Pokerstars because you did some transfers with a degen/scammer is slightly less of a punishment than having the police kick your door down and making you repay the victims.

It seems the lesson to be learned is: Don't do financial deals worth several thousands of dollars with people you neither know or trust. 'Guilt by association' is a real phenomenon, and in the real world it can have much worse consequences.
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05-25-2015 , 03:19 PM
There has been an update. After I made this thread I got an email saying the case was being transferred. Unfortunately, this turned out to not be true and I received the same generic, illogical, cookie cutter reply today.
Quote:
Hello xxxx,

Thank you for your mail.

Please note that the player at hand transferred you a total of $3811, not $20. As these funds are the only relation you share with this player and we require issues settled by this player to be able to reinstate your account it is reasonable to...

With that said we are not able to disclose this to a third hand party however the player is more than welcome to contact us as we then will assist him to settle the issues at hand.

As previously stated:

"we will not be able to fully reinstate your account until the issues in account 'Bigboifanboy' are resolved due to your association with this player."

So to elaborate further on transfers and as you mentioned these funds being some kind of swap, we would like to draw your attention to section 5.3 of our Terms of Service, which can be accessed at:

http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/tos/

This section reads:

5.3 REAL MONEY TRANSFERS. The PokerStars real money transfer facility is accessed via the "PokerStars Lobby" (under the heading "requests" and then "transfer funds"). Users must enter the amount to transfer and the player ID of the intended recipient. Users are reminded that it is their responsibility to ensure they know who the other Users are before entering into these arrangements. Limits on transfers will be set by PokerStars per User.

The following terms and conditions also apply to the real money transfer facility:

(a) PokerStars reserves the right to decline any account transfer requests or to overturn any account transfer upon suspicion of breach of any of the terms of this Agreement by the sender or receiver.
(b) A sending User agrees that they may only make an account transfer to enable a receiving User to play the Games and not for any other purpose.
(c) A receiving User agrees that they may only use the funds from an account transfer to play the Games and not for any other purpose.
(d) Users cannot cash out funds directly received from a transfer, (refer to sub-paragraph (c) above); winnings arising from playing the Games using the transferred funds that subsequently contribute to a cash out request will be reviewed in accordance with PokerStars' internal controls, policies and procedures

In addition, we would like to bring your attention to subsections b),c) and d), which make it clear that the purposes of Transfers are only to play Games on the site and not for any other purposes. Performing a financial service via these transfers directly contravenes these clauses.

Please let us know if we can assist you further.

Regards,

Karl
PokerStars Security Investigation Team
Account frozen on Pokerstars for receiving funds from a wrong'n Quote
05-25-2015 , 10:41 PM
Firstly, thanks to the mod that evidently fixed the thread title.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Luck Brian
There has been an update. After I made this thread I got an email saying the case was being transferred. Unfortunately, this turned out to not be true and I received the same generic, illogical, cookie cutter reply today.
I can understand your frustration, as it seems you're innocent of obvious wrongdoing. You've been helpful in providing info, whereas most threads that contain the words "account frozen" are started by people that are not being wholly honest.
But the replies from Stars seem pretty logical to me. They quoted the ToS which you signed up for. Many of the terms are there to protect the site (and its customers) from cheats and money-laundering criminals.
The ToS for player transfers states: Users are reminded that it is their responsibility to ensure they know who the other Users are before entering into these arrangements.

Unfortunately, as you've said, "I met him on another pokersite... I no longer speak with that individual".

I sympathise with you for getting caught up in some business transactions with a guy that turned out to be dodgy, but Stars is only following its own ToS. Unless someone else can think of any great ideas...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodevu
you're ****ed

Last edited by Mike Haven; 05-26-2015 at 01:49 AM.
Account frozen on Pokerstars for receiving funds from a wrong'n Quote
05-26-2015 , 02:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Luck Brian
It's plausible that the funds he sent me were obtained illegitimately, but I dont think it's the responsibility of the recipient to vet that.
I er, um...wait, what?

Of course you bear responsibility for this. In many jurisdictions, if you buy stolen property, knowingly or not, you lose it. And in the case that it was done knowingly, you could be criminally charged.
Account frozen on Pokerstars for receiving funds from a wrong'n Quote
05-26-2015 , 08:19 AM
You say you were scammed and no longer were in contact with the guy. When did you contact him and have him send you the e-mail you then posted in this thread?

I'm surprised he was so helpful.
Account frozen on Pokerstars for receiving funds from a wrong'n Quote
05-26-2015 , 01:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobo Fett
I er, um...wait, what?

Of course you bear responsibility for this. In many jurisdictions, if you buy stolen property, knowingly or not, you lose it. And in the case that it was done knowingly, you could be criminally charged.
So you're saying, if on twoplustwo for example, someone on the highstakes transfer thread does a transfer with someone who it later turns out did something dodgy, the innocent person deserves to have their account banned as well? There are no real reasonable precautions someone can take to ensure that the other site has not done something shady.

In any case, it is not even confirmed one way or another that the issue is with this player was him using illegitimate funds to give me, Pokerstars refused to clarify it. It is just speculation as to what he initially did wrong. I was also told by the site that this was not a situation where I would be expected to remunerate stars in anyway.

Last edited by Bad Luck Brian; 05-26-2015 at 01:40 PM.
Account frozen on Pokerstars for receiving funds from a wrong'n Quote
05-26-2015 , 01:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Luck Brian
So you're saying, if on twoplustwo for example, someone on the highstakes transfer thread does a transfer with someone who it later turns out did something dodgy, the innocent person deserves to have their account banned as well?
Presumably most competent sites would have a scale in place which would depend on length of time on site, player points (rake) generated, stakes played, volume, etc vs association with fraudulent party. In a previous example/question of yours, its unlikely, imo, that sauce would be frozen for receiving $3.8K worth of funds, if this is indeed about the funds received. If he received a 6-7 fig amount then it might be different. Again, it depends also on what the actual fraudulent party did. It would be unlikely that this person only had a single fraudulent $20 deposit, and much more likely that there is a ton more involved.

A brand new player receiving a much smaller amount of funds, than you received, may find themselves in the same situation as yourself, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Luck Brian
There are no real reasonable precautions someone can take to ensure that the other site has not done something shady.
There is, you only trade with people you know/trust
Account frozen on Pokerstars for receiving funds from a wrong'n Quote
05-26-2015 , 01:53 PM
If this was a high stakes reg would of never happen bet the ship.
Account frozen on Pokerstars for receiving funds from a wrong'n Quote
05-26-2015 , 04:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Luck Brian
So you're saying, if on twoplustwo for example, someone on the highstakes transfer thread does a transfer with someone who it later turns out did something dodgy, the innocent person deserves to have their account banned as well?
No, that's not even remotely close to what I'm saying - that's a terrible analogy.

But in the situation you describe, it would depend on the situation. If it was felt that you in some way aided the scammer, then of course. If you did so unknowingly, probably not, but it's still possible. But that's all rather moot, since we're not a site that is accepting deposits from you or sending you money, and thus have no concern about being defrauded by you. The two situations are in no way, shape, or form analogous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Luck Brian
There are no real reasonable precautions someone can take to ensure that the other site has not done something shady.
I'm going to assume you've worded this poorly, but if you meant exactly what you typed, then you should stop trading with people immediately.

There are lots of reasonable precautions you can take by doing research into your trading partners. Unfortunately, there of course is no 100% guarantee that even someone who appears to be extremely trustworthy won't turn rogue one day - that's the risk you take when you trade with strangers. Unfortunate, but true.
Account frozen on Pokerstars for receiving funds from a wrong'n Quote
05-26-2015 , 04:54 PM
In the first point you addressed I was referencing the person being banned by the poker site, not 2p2 obviously
Account frozen on Pokerstars for receiving funds from a wrong'n Quote
05-26-2015 , 11:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Luck Brian
In the first point you addressed I was referencing the person being banned by the poker site, not 2p2 obviously
You offered to take care of the chargeback of 20 pounds and were still denied?

Spoiler:
Account frozen on Pokerstars for receiving funds from a wrong'n Quote
05-27-2015 , 02:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Luck Brian
In the first point you addressed I was referencing the person being banned by the poker site, not 2p2 obviously
In that case, it sounds like you're just describing exactly what happened to you, but with the arrangements having been made on 2+2 rather than somewhere else. Do I have that correct?

Regardless, I don't think the banning of your account is a big deal. Stars can choose whose business they want, and if they have determined you're a risk to them for some reason, that's certainly their prerogative.
Account frozen on Pokerstars for receiving funds from a wrong'n Quote
05-27-2015 , 02:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhoylegend
You say you were scammed and no longer were in contact with the guy. When did you contact him and have him send you the e-mail you then posted in this thread?

I'm surprised he was so helpful.
I was confused by that. OP's wording was confusing too.
FWIW, the date on the email about the chargeback is November 2014, so it seems possible/likely that OP did at least know that Bigboifanboy was in "trouble" several months ago. According to OP, his own Stars account wasn't frozen until March 12th 2015.

Cynics can no doubt imagine the piles of dirty cash that OP withdrew in the intervening period, but let's be charitable, credit him with some naivety, and give him the benefit of the doubt.
Account frozen on Pokerstars for receiving funds from a wrong'n Quote
05-27-2015 , 09:02 AM
so Bigboifanboys account is -£20 and when its restored to £0 you will get ur account back? is that correct? I dont understand why they wouldnt let u just pay this £20 when u asked them if u cold or since you know the guys email address/skype whatever, arrange to send him £20 and then he pays it? I know the £20 isnt ur responsibilty but if it gets u ur account back then its worth it
Account frozen on Pokerstars for receiving funds from a wrong'n Quote
05-27-2015 , 09:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FUrake
so Bigboifanboys account is -£20 and when its restored to £0 you will get ur account back? is that correct?
Going on what OP stated in this thread this is not the correct

Quote:
Originally Posted by FUrake
I dont understand why they wouldnt let u just pay this £20 when u asked them if u cold or since you know the guys email address/skype whatever, arrange to send him £20 and then he pays it? I know the £20 isnt ur responsibilty but if it gets u ur account back then its worth it
or maybe Bigboifanboy has charged back more than 1 deposit of just 20 STER and is trying to downplay the situation to the OP. Stars' emails are pretty clear that its more then just an issue over 20 STER

Last edited by pmarrsouth; 05-27-2015 at 10:00 AM. Reason: quote fail
Account frozen on Pokerstars for receiving funds from a wrong'n Quote
05-27-2015 , 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobo Fett
In that case, it sounds like you're just describing exactly what happened to you, but with the arrangements having been made on 2+2 rather than somewhere else. Do I have that correct?

Regardless, I don't think the banning of your account is a big deal. Stars can choose whose business they want, and if they have determined you're a risk to them for some reason, that's certainly their prerogative.
Yes you have that correct. And how is being locked out of 70% of the online poker player pool due to something that is not my fault "not a big deal"?
Account frozen on Pokerstars for receiving funds from a wrong'n Quote
05-27-2015 , 01:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Luck Brian
And how is being locked out of 70% of the online poker player pool due to something that is not my fault "not a big deal"?
It's a big deal for you, of course, and I'm sorry for you that you dealt with the wrong stranger and got burned as a result. What I meant was that I don't think Stars has done anything wrong here, and thus it's not a big deal to the poker community at large.

About the only suggestion I have for you is to PM one of the Stars reps on our site, but I don't know that you'll get a different result - it's worth a try, though.
Account frozen on Pokerstars for receiving funds from a wrong'n Quote
08-27-2015 , 01:04 PM
Update:

After a couple months from not hearing anything from Pokerstars, I received this email:

Quote:
Hello (name),

thank you for your mail.

Unfortunately, given the circumstances we would not be able to reinstated your account until the issues have been resolved. So assumed your statement "never will resolved" is true then your account will remain restricted indefinitely. Clearly not a optimal solution for any part however given the circumstances it is warranted from our point of view. Again we apologize for the inconvenience.

Please let us know if we can assist you further.

Regards,

Karl
PokerStars Security Investigation Team
So essentially, despite the fact that I have not broken any ToS, and even Pokerstars has acknowledged I am not responsible for the offense committed by the person I received funds from (they denied my offer to indemnify them in order to receive my account back), I have been given the harshest punishment to exist in online poker. Under no strain of logic is this just.
Account frozen on Pokerstars for receiving funds from a wrong'n Quote
08-27-2015 , 04:46 PM
why is a portion of the email clipped out of this post, seems like some pertinent info there

the part following this quote:
Quote:
As these funds are the only relation you share with this player and we require issues settled by this player to be able to reinstate your account it is reasonable to...
also how quickly were these funds cashed out following the transfers?
Account frozen on Pokerstars for receiving funds from a wrong'n Quote

      
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