If software is creating a problem that cartels are needed to solve then that software should be banned - this means sharkystrator and spinwiz. Instead, a person who accepts a rematch when the other declines should get the next one to open in the lobby.

Would love a quick decision, was about to buy a NoteCaddy pack before this thread popped up, obv not worth buying if it'll be obsolete in a few weeks/months.

They did not say it would be banned, only that it would require some changes. What those changes would be is not clear in the OP.

I am pretty sure people will not understand the difference

I'm agreeing with Richas on his reply.
Although buggering him with a pitchfork sideways doesn't float my boat. Richas is A1 when it comes to UK legislation & the gambling commission. He seems to get attacked by the same winning troll bots as I do. It's like 2 Brits are upsetting our apple cart so let's trash their posts!
I'm an ex police detective so wtf do I know about fraud? Or collusion? I was part of the IT anti fraud surveillance team. I was born 46 years ago with a mouse in one hand and joystick in the other so wtf after studying AI at PhD level do I know about computers?

Stop all those stfu & "your spoiling my multiple automatrons and game aids so I can make a wage off other suckers" type grinders.

But yes a British expression "for F*** sake think of the long term loss in customers when you've all been raking each other out of poker with the same old money doing a 360 degree circle. That's the worse case scenario for all these extra poker aids.

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err no, turns out that I talked about the process as outlined in this very forum for cartel membership - data sharing between co-conspirators to admit some to a club based on data proof that they are good enough for the club.

The club rules after the applicant data sharing include auditing via club members sharing more data, using data mining sites and various other checks to ensure that the shared data is complete, real, unedited....before you get to the prize, a place in the club where the best players refuse to play each other but instead collude via table selection software to play anyone else but the in crowd.

To do this there is more data sharing, the full membership list for a start.

The rules are not unclear, the cartel actively cooperates as a group, as a conspiracy, to benefit members of the cartel which is naturally to the detriment of all others. To do this there is data sharing, active regular co-operation between the members and the use of sofware to let the conspiracy work...to the benefit of the members of the conspiracy.

None of these facts are disputed, that is what is happening, it is quite open. Now some defend it, claim it is fair as anyone good enough can gain entry, somehow the place at the top table is meritocratic but the purpose is clear, to benefit those in the club. A conspiracy, a cartel.

You don't actually dispute that summary at all, instead you attack me personally, well at least the psychology is consistent, attack the non member.

Meanwhile we can agree, we want a reasonable balance, clear rules, proper enforcement. Amusingly I am the only one who has raised that enforcement on the key issue of keeping illegal data out of in game play (via the HUD).

My style is combative, argumentative but all the stuff on the key issue of HUD and tracker suppliers opening up their system to let the sites supervise data (and in hand advice) has attracted no row at all - apparently everyone agrees that illegal data should not be used and that sites should police it, apparently forcing the suppliers to co-operate openly with sites to help tackle cheating is uncontroversial, everyone seems to want it or at least nobody is speaking out against it.

The gordion knot to be cut is getting access for sites to the HUD and the data used in it - without that access the rules written are entirely moot. With it and we have a new balance where the cheats can be stopped and rules tweaked and amended in future. Without getting HUD supply integrated to data and collusion prevention by sites and we don't have a sustainable future for online poker, whether you gang up on others in a cartel or just sit your ass down and play.

As it happens I think

Maybe I can help explain. Do you remember back in March 2013 some upstart decided to set up a thread in NVG to help collate the various cheating scandals that have harmed online poker?

The reason was to inform a submision to the Gambling Commission about cheating, player funds being stolen and the like. Basically somebody thought it was better to look in to the face of the beast and try to get something done about it and collate a set of cliff notes - a timeline of cheating to dump as a big steaming pile of pooh on the regulator's desk. An attempt to get them to take it seriously and put resource in to protecting poker players from cheaters and scammers.

What was the 2+2 player pool response? Well some joined in with enthusiasm but there was a pretty hostile reaction to facing truth. Apparently admitting what had gone wrong in the past was a "negative freeroll" on online poker. The cry went out - burn the heretic, banish him, delete the thread, admiting truth, allowing light to shine on online poker was deemed as bad by some.

To settle it, for the first and only time (I know of) NVG had a poll - delete the thread or the poll should live.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...-lane-1310645/

It turns out that 37% voted to delete the past, to ignore the issue as it would be bad to face the truth, remember the proposal was only a set of cliffs on the various scandals in a rough timetable ...... Better to hide it all said 37%!!!!

Now you can deny all you like that cartels are essentially conspiracies of some players that operate in their own self interest in order to disadvantage others, you are welcome to the view, it's nonsense but hey such is life.

You can pretend there is no data abuse involved despite sharing info from applicants personal database and data from other cartel members databases to others in the conspiracy all you like, it's still true. How else do you vet the members?

Meanwhile we know that the cartels tend to have specialised HUDs that use regularly updated "population data" that consists of the population - NOT CARTEL MEMBER - but hey you can pretend that is not data cheating if you like

Join the 37% of over two years ago that prefer to deny and ignore. Deny all you like, it is a conspiracy, a cartel - and it relies on specialist software and includes data sharing that should be unacceptable for table selecting - using many players databases to decide what table to sit.

Sadly on third party software Stars used to be on the side of the 37%, essentially ignore and minimise the problem....now over 2 years later that position looks less and less credible, certainly it is starting to look completely unsustainable. Maybe Stars bite the bullet and act now to try and get some sort of a grip, or they kick the can down the road and ignore it for a bit longer but I can guarantee damn tell you that can is not gonna get kicked too far in to the future. The old ignore, deny minimise approach to unethical stuff just don't play for very much longer.

Edit, damn I forgot the quote:

When Canada Bill was told the game he was sat in was crooked this is what he said "I know but its the only game in town".

Me, I'd rather we had a clean(er) game.

I'm really disappointed that this is your summary considering the effort I put into explaining how it works. While you may have a good reputation for solving issues re:the poker industry through your posting and influence with the regulator, I have to question your judgement and willingness to debate the genuine facts.
I hope your posts on other issues in this thread and others are more fact based.

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Reread your post, in your enthusiasm to attack me you forgot to explain how it works. Indeed again you manage to be disapointed in my summary but choose not to tackle any key part of it at all.

Let's have the Pepsi challenge. I gave you my summary, a summary that says I consider it a conspiracy and unethical, but note I did not go so far as to call it cheating and thus criminal.

Menawhile, let's have your summary. Let's see - is it Coke or Pepsi?

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Keep them coming, Richas, it's great entertainment. I am starting to think you actually believe your fantasies. Tell me please, where is the pleasure in speaking about things you don't have a clue about and pretending you write the ultimate truth? I asked you before, will ask you again, does it make you feel special? Have you considered ever maybe there are topics on which you are not competent enough to give opinions?

kobmish just mad that richas is owning this thread

So it is a conspiracy then Also FYI using the quote function, then putting your comments outside the quote works, being lazy and just bolding **** in a quote just inconveniences others, still that's the psychology again.

This comes straight from a boastful thread by the $60 cartel that was bragging about it's improved process, linked to earlier in the thread. In that bet offer you neglected to outline the lies in question, all I did was include stuff from that thread.

TBH I am not that bothered. You see cartels are doomed anyway, they are a temporary response to a temporary problem.....

Problem, Sharkystartor has killed the lobby
Answer, add a conspiracy/craft union to Sharky and we get some games, and via conspiring we get to take advantage of the rest, oh BTW the pleebs are the most fun we can torture them.....DOH that is not fixing the problem.

The cartels will collapse under their own contradictions before long anyway so pfft. If you want to take me on re cartels and why they are doomed, start a thread on that. Meanwhile thanks for admitting that they are a product of uncontrolled third party software and do indeed involve a conspiracy that includes dubious data sharing.

I have reread your stuff, if you really want me to say OK sorry wrong on that - provie the two bullet points where I was wrong, then a brief sentence on why that matters to what is clearly a conspiracy.

I hope you are not using illegal in literal sense here. Datamining, sharing, selling, constructing databases or doing anything else with hand histories is entirely legal as they are not a subject to copyright and Poker Stars doesn't own them.
Poker Stars can have a policy of not allowing people who do those things on their site but that's about it.
It would be easier to go around it from prevention standpoint (make it hard/impossible to datamine) instead of hoping people just stop doing it.

before you continue, tell a mod to get some new /b/ tags for the cartel. thread is running low.

I'm not sure this is strictly true, but it would definitely be a very borderline case at most.

We clearly have vastly different understandings of the word conspiracy. If the football league (or any other league for that matter where movement up and down is dependent on results as well as money available to be won) is a conspiracy by your definition, then yes, divisions are likely also conspiracies. If we use almost any other definition then no, they are not conspiracies.

I think by bragging about, you mean communicating to the wider poker community more fair rules that they were pleased to have put in place. It wouldn't be a Richas post without injecting charged phrases into it though.

The two lies were bolded for you, I'm not quite sure how you missed that.

Nobody claimed divisions have anything but a limited lifespan and I am genuinely perplexed as to why you say that as though it is some grandiose revelation that we mere mortals have only just had revealed to us. I'm sure people are well aware that this particular format has a limited lifespan and once it is no longer worth it people will stop playing and divisions will not function. I am glad you aren't that bothered though, it really does show in your lack of prior research.

I really don't care whether you say it or not either and it's really not worth my time trying to get you to say something I've no doubt you have no intention of saying, it was just interesting observation that you chose not to and I felt it spoke volumes. I've made the points I felt necessary and I'm sure anyone reading this thread at a later date can make up their mind about whether you were lying/mistaken or not.

Well Stars has used their copyright to try to deal with data mining, they have issued ceae and desist orders on some sites and used that threat on others to get them to agree to player opt in to to tracking not opt out out but hey that's just what Stars and 888 have done.

Meanwhile for the individual player using data mined data in their HUD - something clearly banned by tars TOS, well yeah that is cheating. Breaking the rules of the gambling contract...in the UK or vs a UK player that is indeed a crime, still it only ha a max sentence of two years and nobody (yet) gives a stuff but yes, when I say illegal data I mean illegal as in criminal, as in a criminal record, as in (if the authorities enforced the existin law) go to gaol criminal.

LOL - asked and answered - at least twice - the data mined info and TeamViewer check stuff is openly discussed in the $60 cartel thread linked to earlier by another poster. If your read it you would see I was merely talking about what they were advocating. If there is a lie it is the $60 cartel's lie not mine. Maybe the whole thread clarifying the rules and the audit process was a bit of Pleeb baiting, I don't know, but I take them at their word.

As for your divisions rubbish...can you not see that Premier League teams are not in a conspiracy to win all their games by never playing each other and instead knocking three past the Division Two teams...unless they are lucky enough to play a Conference league team. They have divisions where they play each other to find out who is best and who goes down.

Your conspiracy "division" is entirely about the best NOT playing each other. Can you really not see the difference i terms of the impact upon the members of the division and the aspirants for a place in that division? Can you really not see that your analogy just shows how dishonest the cartel is in comparison to a real meritocratic league structure?

As I tried to point out in my post - this isn't "clear" at all. In fact, "datamining" does not even appear in the ToS. It is mentioned (and defined) in the additional document "Prohibited Online Software FAQ", which is the subject of this thread.

As I'm sure you're aware, PokerTracker and Holdem Manager can both "datamine" a small number of hands per session, and use them in their HUDs. I'm sure PokerStars are aware of these functions, and yet they are deemed acceptable.

You are of course right that Stars choose not to enforce ther own prohibition on data mining, the old ignore, mimimise, deny approach seemed to work for so long.....not sustainable. I hate to have to say it when it is never going to get there anyway but any reasonable jury reading "Prohibited Online Software FAQ" would indeed take using prohibited software to be cheating, for the simple reason...that it is.

This is simply false. You act like it would be totally different if they werent there. Guess what, people in poker play weaker opponents all the time. Its one of the most important things to do. IF these socalled conspiracy groups didnt exist, this would not change. The only thing that would change is that fish would get hunted MORE (more people waiting) and regs would play each other less (ZERO INCENTIVE, freeriding etc) instead of forcing regs to play eachother like it is set up right now.

To derail this important discussion any further is blatant trolling from your part, esp because you are making a false claim in almost every sentence you write about it.

gg software