Okay, what's the technical ruling on something like this :

On the river player 1 checks.
Player 2 checks back.
Player one doesn't move and is in wait mode.

Player 2 says 'you win, take it' and tables his cards face up but over the line and (in my recollection) releases them.

Player 1 is still in wait mode.

Dealer is also in wait mode but after a little pause mucks player 2's hand.

Player not in hand reminds dealer that player 1 needs to show a hand to take down the pot.

Player one wakes up and tables the winning hand.
(Player 2 rightly assumed he made his small flush draw on the end)

Now here's where it gets interesting, player 2 starts to berate the dealer telling her his hand was live and that she could have cost him the pot.

????

Obviously she didn't cost him the pot because player 1's hand was live no matter what. He just hadn't showed the winner yet.

But I got into a friendly argument with player not in hand about the status of player 2's hand.

I was of the opinion that he clearly showed intent to fold and when he released his hand across the line it was dead. Face up or down.

He was of the opinion that only the word 'fold' means fold and verbal intent is not an action.

I see his point (although this would encourage angle shooting) but the dealer was thinking like I was. She said as much to player 2. She took his action to be a fold and was waiting for player 1 to show so she could push him the pot.

Did the dealer deserve a tongue lashing here ?
She got one from both players but I think she made a reasonable decision.

Player 2 DID NOT fold. Player 2 made some table banter and tabled a legit hand.

Player 2 released his hand over the betting line and says "You win, take it." Imo, anyone who faults a dealer for taking those cards and putting them in the muck is getting exactly what they asked for. Maybe I'm a bit too old school but the dealers aren't mind readers---there comes a time where the player just has to be accountable for the actions they take, verbal or otherwise.

Protect your ****ing hand. If you're gonna leave them out in left field after making a stupid comment such as that?...then I hope you're at least smart enough to have your hand on top of those cards.

I'm siding with the dealer on this one and would not allow for Player 2 to do any "berating", and I probably would've called for the Floor if I saw that the dealer wasn't able to handle her/himself.

Why would any dealer ever muck player 2's hand in this situation? They are tabled and they are the only tabled cards at showdown. At this point Player 2 is winning you don't muck the cards.

Now I agree there is no call to berate the dealer. Its not even a big deal because the hand was tabled and exposed for all to see the cards are identifiable and the error is easily fixed if need be.

But certainly the dealer should not have mucked the cards when he did.

Ehhhhh. I can agree with faulting player 2 for not protecting his hand, but this is showdown and (looking at you, op) there's no folding here. Only mucking. The hand was tabled, regardless of what was said. A competent dealer doesn't need to be reminded that the other hand has to be shown in order to award the pot. I don't have RROP handy but I don't believe the line comes into play at showdown. This doesn't seem like a legit muck.

He didn't have to be a mind reader.

All he had to be was a card reader. They were face up. The action was over. It was Showdown. He should have left them there and waited until Rip Van Winkle woke up and tabled his cards.

Dealer is in the wrong here.

It's showdown. "I fold", "Take it", "You win", "I muck", etc. mean nothing. The guy tabled his hand at showdown. He gets the pot until somebody else can table a better one.

Obviously the player is also at fault here, but the dealer isn't off the hook.

So, even at showdown, if someone says "You win, take it" and tosses their cards over the line, the dealer is supposed to leave the cards there?

Ok, I guess I'm wrong(and you guys probably know the rules better than me esp. if you're a dealer/Floor...so I can respect that), I just don't like or agree when players do really stupid **** like this and then dump it all in the dealer's lap.

If they are face up, absolutely.

I think it's in the dealer's lap to know this fairly standard rule of poker, since this is his job. If my cab driver runs a stop sign because I tell him it's OK, he's still responsible for the ticket.

The key is that the cards are face up. If he throws them in face down .... they get mucked. If they are face up they are tabled.

A fold is a fold, when you fold. This is not a fold. Dealer was wrong to muck the hand and if it would've turned out to be a winner the floor should rule to give the best hand the pot.

This thread would be much more interesting if Player 1 had decided to muck face down and the dealer pushed him the pot. Then Player 2 says "oh, no you di-int. Floor!"

Face down? No, I muck em.

Face up? It's a tabled hand.

I'm gonna make sure the other player knows that the hand is live and the current winner.

Seems to me that the player who tabled his hand was angling, hoping that his opponent, hearing "You win," would muck his cards. The player would then claim the pot with the only tabled hands. Not as eggregious an angle as misdeclaring your hand at showdown without showing them, but still an angle.

Really? I see players do this "you win" thing 20-30 times a day at showdown simply because they think they lost and they feel better about losing when they can feel like everyone thinks they are smart for reading the hand right or something.

Wait, what? I thought verbal was binding, so if a player said "I fold" their hand was dead. I can see disallowing a fold here in a tourney for chip-dumping concerns, but in cash?

At showdown there is no more action. A player saying "I fold" at showdown is no different than a player saying "I bet" at showdown .......

You can't fold at showdown. Fold is something you can do when facing action. At showdown there is no more action. You either show or muck. There is nothing you can "say" that will kill your hand.

Thanks guys.


So the hand was tabled, not mucked based on the fact that it was released face up ? Got it.

So my buddy was right (of course he was....he's just that guy)

There is no way to verbally fold ? (he was actually wrong on that point)

Interesting. I usually play straight up and don't try to shoot these types of angles. And if I wait for binding action and/or dealer signals I don't get taken by them.

But this mickey mouse stuff is part of live play. The 'meta game' and all that.

I may be wrong but in the end I think poker skill wins poker money. All that head space taken up scheming in a math based game can't be optimal. lol

.

No. Player 1 was just sitting there with the winner waiting for......I don't know what.

But he's a very competent, long time player. He knew he had the winning hand. I think he's just the type that hates showing his cards unless he has to and figured since the dealer threw player 2's hand into the muck he might get by without having to show.

A bit of an angle on his part to I suppose.

But he didn't make a point of berating the dealer after his dumb move so it doesn't come off as dickish.

"You can't fold at showdown. Fold is something you can do when facing action. At showdown there is no more action. You either show or muck. There is nothing you can "say" that will kill your hand."

Yes, I have it.

At showdown you table or muck. The action declares which you do. Face up you table face down you muck.

There is no verbal declaration at that point.

Thanks.

You might find a room where "you win" at showdown is binding.

I'm not sure if this is totally correct. And, if it is correct, then I don't agree with it.

At showdown, imo, there actually is further action. Obviously you can not "bet" once the final action is complete, same applies for "calling" or "raising"---but I do think that you can "fold" even when all the action is complete.

If it's a heads up pot(and even when it's multiway or w/e) and the players start tabling their cards and I turn my hand up and say "I fold"... I expect that dealer to take my cards and put them in the area where "folded" hands go. So, even if I table my cards, if I commit to the action of fold, even at showdown, then I have folded. Perhaps "You win take it" would NOT constitute as a fold thus the dealer should've left his hand there face up, but if he would've said "I fold" instead of the other comment, then I feel that the dealer should get a one-time confirmation on that("Is that a fold, sir?") and then allow him to act on that.

You might expect the dealer to do this. But I don't. And if you expect me to do this you are going to be disappointed.