Oh well of course! If he thinks his hand is good and just doesn't know the rule that you have to show two, sure! I was only referring to when the player doesn't realize it, and if we're going by this particular hand(and that's really what we should be sticking to) then no, I don't believe he knew what he had hence his "you've got me out kicked" comment along with the cards coming forward.

As an aside, you guys must play with different people than me---I've yet to see someone toss their cards towards the muck, tell their opponent that they have them out kicked ALL while being fully aware(ha ha) that they're chopping. Bizarre.

Because a Hero who would like to get the full pot might describe it in this way, when in fact the same event could also be described as "tossing their cards toward the dealer, joking that they are out-kicked, while showing the pot-chopping 5 and expecting a chopped pot".

The description of what happened is based on whose perspective/motive is doing the describing.

If I am Mr Q5, I tell my Opponent to turn his other card over or tell the Dealer to just chop the pot.

I feel no sympathy for any other Mr Q5 who whines about having to chop the pot if that is what ends up happening.

When a player only shows one card he has no claim to the pot. It is his and only his obligation to turn the other card over. For the dealer or anyone else to tell him to turn it over or that he has a chop would be an OPTAH violation.

I am completely ok with the dealer saying "are you mucking?" or even "gotta show both cards to win." but that is pretty much where I draw the line.

The player who only showed one card did not table his hand. Both hole cards must be shown. Otherwise, when the cards are pushed forward with one card face down, the hand has been mucked.

Maybe you guys play with a bunch of cutthroat dbags idk, but games I've played in, in this exact type of scenario, half the table would've spoken up and said something like "dude it's a chop, don't muck" or "you need to show both cards for the chop dude".

Also, the other chop player wouldn't be fuming, calling for floor wondering how he didn't get the whole pot while screaming about OPTAH violations from the other players lol.

I guess I'm glad I don't play in the games with the types of players you all play with lol.

The only reason you would add "for the chop" is if you think the player did not recognize the chop and was trying to muck. From this, it should be obvious why it's a OPTAH violation.

Which half? Saying half of poker players would do something is not exactly a glowing endorsement of that thing.

TheFly, for as much as you post about your vast experience of live play, your opinions very often don't line up with those of others with the same amount of experience. Maybe you play at the VFW or something, but it's very rare to find a place like the one you're talking about. Not complaining about your posting, I'm just more letting you know for when you venture out into the rest of the poker world.

Yea for sure you are probably right about that. But how is it an opinion if I'm just stating what I've seen take place at the tables in the past? Maybe it's regional or even card room dependent, I was just alluding to the fact that I've seen lots of players who will watch out for each other, even if they don't know one another. So yeah when the hand is basically over and a guy shows 1 card clearly indicating a chop, I'm not surprised to see some players at the table say something to try to prompt him to realize he shouldn't be folding/mucking a chopped pot. Surprised you haven't also encountered a relatively gentlemanly type of game and players, they do exist.

I will have to agree. Most casinos and local cardrooms that I play in will have at least one or two players chime in and say chop it up or chop pot.
While it may be a technical rules violation, I have never seen it penalized. Sometimes a player or dealer will say " please dont read the hand until it is tabled" or something like that.
Not a good idea to play "gotcha" poker with noobs. We want them to come back.

Agree about the gotcha poker, which is why in this situation I would take a very short pause before mucking and state "you must show both cards to win a hand" and see what happens next. If nothing, then at least you made an attempt to let the noob know a rule they may have not known and wasnt just doing this because they were not paying attention (though by the statements mucking player said, this particular case learns towards column B)

But as a player I am on the fence, maybe in charity room better chance I say something. Question is, even though this would 'never happen to you', if it did would you want to know or are you the expensive lesson learned type of person (going against how I feel about mucker in OP who obviously wasnt paying attention due to comments, what if you just didnt know the rule)?

V says "You have me out kicked"
V exposes his 5 on top of the other card face down
V tosses them toward the muck

... the clear intent here is to fold. IMO the player cannot really argue otherwise.

HOWEVER if the dealer interprets otherwise, asks player to table or fold, and the player tables, then the H doesn't really get to complain either imo.

Even if the dealer broke etiquette by saying "that five is good enough to chop" and treats it like a tabling, then H doesn't get to complain much either.

Honestly I could say the same to you. That sounds very tilting.

That would be a pretty blatant violation of the rules. Dealers get in trouble for doing things like that.

The problem with the "gentlemanly" approach that TheFly advocates is that we need to draw a line somewhere. Clearly at some point we're violating OPTAH.

The question is at what point do we have a tabled hand and the dealer or other players can/should assist in reading the hand. I've always heard that a tabled and is two cards, face up on the felt. That's where I'd draw the line. If a guy turns one card face up and the other face down it's not a tabled hand and I'm not going to read it any more than I'd read it if he held up his cards or let me peak as his neighbor.

I've had a guy sitting next to me show his terrible luck at missing his flush draw and watched him muck the winning straight. I commiserate with him about how bad he's running. To do otherwise would violate OPTAH.

This will surely get him to look back at the board to see why you don't think he should fold.

I'm gonna turn the card face down and drag the cards to the muck while watching him the see if he's gonna object.

This depends on how you say it. I don't say it with an inflection indicating surprise that he is mucking. I say it as though I don't know what he is doing. And its often met with a disdainful "What the **** do you think I'm doing?"

And after a "WTF do you think I'm doing" you get to bury it in the muck with a smile on your face.

ETA: And if the player is that special brand of miserable I see from time to time as a player I might add "I think you're folding a chop" after it's buried.

I don't consider it gentlemanly to break the rules.

I'm not advocating this, I'm just telling you what I've observed in pretty much the exact same scenario. Is it a strict violation of OPTAH, perhaps.

Maybe in some card rooms or even among some groups of players, in this exact specific scenario, the turning over of the non-relevant pot-chopping card is viewed as a mere technicality for the table camera, so when a guy reveals a card that chops the pot, and someone else at the table says "ok chop it up", no one is even fazed by it. I understand some people may not like this. I'm not advocating for it, just relaying how I've seen situations like this resolve with no penalty or even player protest. Most, if not all, players just want dealer to quickly chop up the damn pot, since chopping usually takes longer than simply pushing whole pot, and deal the next hand.

If I am the OP in this hand, I am definitely telling the other player to just turn over his other card, unless that player himself is a serial angle-shooter or otherwise inconsiderate player.

You are correct it is fairly common..... common the same way saying "OOOH look a flush on the board". People do these things and its not because they have thought them out and made a decision that this is a good or proper thing to do.

Its because they don;t think and refuse to belive rules apply to them.

Sadly some people see this behavior and then conclude it is acceptable because they see it happen.

I'm fine with the dealer just mucking this hand or pausing and maybe asking what is going on.

Someone is going to end up losing half a pot based on whether or not that hand gets tabled properly, I'm ok with it being the guy who did something weird (tabling one card) over the guy who tabled his hand properly.

I thought the rule was, 'Cards speak.' So if he turned over one card, that would be a chopped pot whether or not he is aware of it.

The rule is "cards speak". Not "card speaks".