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12-30-2015 , 02:43 PM
#1
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Game is 1-3 NL, full ring, cash.

Preflop folds to villain B who makes it $17, villain C calls. Folds to Villain A (BB) who calls. So 3*17+1(SB)-5(rake)-2(BBJP) = $45 in pot preflop and 3 hands to see the flop.

Flop comes (cards don't matter).

A bets $35 (7 reds), B (obviously not paying close attention to actions) picks up 2 green chips and releases them across the betting line and then says "raise to 50."

Player A says B's action is a call not a raise. B claims he did not know that a raise must be as large as the prior bet or raise and also did not know A had bet 35. C goes to fold but dealer stops him. B now states he raises to $100. Floor is called.

What is B's action/options?

Per oversized chip rule would seem to be a call since both greens are necessary to cover the $35 bet and one can't be removed and still cover.

Per the 1/2 of bet rule to indicate intentions the $15 (50-35) is less than 1/2 of the $35 original bet so that indicates a call.

If B stated raise first then put out the chips, it would be a min raise to $70 based on verbal being binding.

There is definitely misunderstanding (at least 2, did not understand a bet of $35 was made and did not understand raise of 35 to $70 was a min raise) but I am not sure it is a GROSS misunderstanding.

What should the action be?

The actual rulling is below...
Spoiler:
A dual rate (floor/dealer) working the floor this shift comes over. After events accurately relayed to him by the dealer, he rules B can only call because $50 is not enough of a raise. B protests and basically says fine, but I want to make it $100 so is that enough? Additionally B stands and starts getting loud. The dual rate calls over shift supervisor (who is fulltime floor.)

SS hears the events but does not appear to grasp all the details. He does not realize C is in the hand (though he is immediately left of B and has cards visible), thinks the $50 was put in after other floor arrived, and starts to rule that B can raise any amount he wants since he announced raise (even though the raise to 50 came after the two greens were dropped.)

C forcefully folds his cards into the muck. (They go into the muck such that they are NOT definitely identifiable, but MIGHT be identifiable. It would be close.)

A nearly explodes and says that even if B can raise anything other than a min raise would constitute a string raise due to the $50 all ready being put out. SS says that would be true only if B had put them out earlier. A, Dealer and dual rate all clarify that B DID put them out and did so before saying raise.

SS reconsiders and gives B the option of either calling the $35 or a min raise to $70. B says fine I'll just call. Now C nearly explodes and demands his cards back because he would have the right "odds" to call a bet and a call and only folded because of B's 'raise'. But C's cards are not clearly identifiable particularly since dealer has ensured the folded hand was fully mucked.

SS reconsiders again and now rules B must raise to $70.
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12-30-2015 , 02:51 PM
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the correct decision should be to hold him to a minraise of 70 since he announced raise but declared a lower than allowed amount.
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12-30-2015 , 03:03 PM
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If the act of putting out the chips and verbally announcing the raise are simultaneous then the verbal act has precedence. Since he announced "Raise" is bound to a raise. in this case he is bound to a minimum raise.

If he put out the chips and then the verbal declaration was made ... the first act controls and this is just a call

These can be difficult decisions because people often have different perceptions of when the various things happened.
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12-30-2015 , 03:08 PM
#4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000
the correct decision should be to hold him to a minraise of 70 since he announced raise but declared a lower than allowed amount.
Does the fact (undisputed at the table) that the $50 was put in first and then B said raise change things? It was bang-bang, but the $50 was in before B said raise. While verbal is certainly binding so are actions. And in this case a valid call action occurred before the verbal raise was invoked. Seems the first valid action, either physical or verbal, should be the binding one.

What if B said raise to 50 first? This is not a valid raise amount. Does allowing B to then increase the raise open the play up to him angling? What if B wanted to claim he only wants to call the 35 because he did not know he would have to make it $70 because he was unaware of the $35 bet.

What if B said bet 50 first?

Seems to me that anything other than enforcing a call opens up angles for B to play.
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12-30-2015 , 03:22 PM
#5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psandman
If the act of putting out the chips and verbally announcing the raise are simultaneous then the verbal act has precedence. Since he announced "Raise" is bound to a raise. in this case he is bound to a minimum raise.

If he put out the chips and then the verbal declaration was made ... the first act controls and this is just a call

These can be difficult decisions because people often have different perceptions of when the various things happened.
^ This. Should be a fairly simple decision imo. If, and it seems to be based on your posts, the money went in before he announced raise, then this is a no-brainer call. It doesn't matter how much time there was between putting the chips in and announcing raise, as long as it can be determines the chips went in first. If it was done simultaneously (the chips went in and announced raise) or if it was not clear cut which was done first, then and only then, does it become a more difficult decision to be made.
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12-30-2015 , 03:23 PM
#6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fore
Does the fact (undisputed at the table) that the $50 was put in first and then B said raise change things? It was bang-bang, but the $50 was in before B said raise. While verbal is certainly binding so are actions. And in this case a valid call action occurred before the verbal raise was invoked. Seems the first valid action, either physical or verbal, should be the binding one.

What if B said raise to 50 first? This is not a valid raise amount. Does allowing B to then increase the raise open the play up to him angling? What if B wanted to claim he only wants to call the 35 because he did not know he would have to make it $70 because he was unaware of the $35 bet.

What if B said bet 50 first?

Seems to me that anything other than enforcing a call opens up angles for B to play.
the way you described it originally sounded like he did it at the same time. It really depends how much time passed between the point he released the chips and the announcement. He needs to announce it no later than the same time he puts the chips out.

if B said 50 before releasing the chips, it's not 50% of the bet, so it should be a call. Just like if he placed 10 reds out without saying anything.
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12-30-2015 , 03:37 PM
#7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000
the way you described it originally sounded like he did it at the same time.
From OP,
...picks up 2 green chips and releases them across the betting line AND THEN SAYS "raise to 50." [emphasis added]

The "AND THEN" would seem to indicate what follows happened after the previously described actions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000
It really depends how much time passed between the point he released the chips and the announcement. He needs to announce it no later than the same time he puts the chips out.
OK, then how much time is too much time. When does it not become "no later than the same time".
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12-30-2015 , 03:41 PM
#8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace upmy Slv
.... If it was done simultaneously (the chips went in and announced raise) or if it was not clear cut which was done first, then and only then, does it become a more difficult decision to be made.
Completely agree.

Now assume it is unclear or disputed which was done first. Further assume dealer cannot say which was done first as he did not see or hear. Now how do you rule?
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12-30-2015 , 03:43 PM
#9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fore
From OP,
...picks up 2 green chips and releases them across the betting line AND THEN SAYS "raise to 50." [emphasis added]

The "AND THEN" would seem to indicate what follows happened after the previously described actions.
If he releases them in the air and then says raise before they land....many rooms use when they hit the felt as the relevant time and this is why it's not clear to me what happened
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12-30-2015 , 04:32 PM
#10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psandman
If he releases them in the air and then says raise before they land....many rooms use when they hit the felt as the relevant time and this is why it's not clear to me what happened
This

Throwing them in and then immediately looking up at the dealer announcing raise is generally accepteed, as long as there wasn't a noticeable pause before the declaration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fore
From OP,
...picks up 2 green chips and releases them across the betting line AND THEN SAYS "raise to 50." [emphasis added]

The "AND THEN" would seem to indicate what follows happened after the previously described actions.
.
see above (and thanks for the grammar lessons)
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12-30-2015 , 08:20 PM
#11
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Does your room really have a "1/2 of bet rule" as described in the OP? If not, then it's irrelevant. Also, "gross misunderstanding" isn't applicable.

This is a call and should be a standard ruling.
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12-31-2015 , 12:33 AM
#12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000
the correct decision should be to hold him to a minraise of 70 since he announced raise but declared a lower than allowed amount.
No.

As quoted, here is what Player B did/said:

Quote:
B (obviously not paying close attention to actions) picks up 2 green chips and releases them across the betting line

and then

says "raise to 50."
Once the checks were released, Player B's action constituted a call. Anything that was said after the checks hit the felt is irrelevant.
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12-31-2015 , 12:36 AM
#13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fore
Does the fact (undisputed at the table) that the $50 was put in first and then B said raise change things? It was bang-bang, but the $50 was in before B said raise. While verbal is certainly binding so are actions. And in this case a valid call action occurred before the verbal raise was invoked. Seems the first valid action, either physical or verbal, should be the binding one.

What if B said raise to 50 first? This is not a valid raise amount. Does allowing B to then increase the raise open the play up to him angling? What if B wanted to claim he only wants to call the 35 because he did not know he would have to make it $70 because he was unaware of the $35 bet.

What if B said bet 50 first?

Seems to me that anything other than enforcing a call opens up angles for B to play.
Replying to the bolded text:

If he had said, "Raise to 50" before the checks had hit the felt, he then should have been required to raise to $70.
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12-31-2015 , 01:27 AM
#14
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B claims he didnt know a raise has to be a certain size and also claims he didnt know that A had bet. First, who thinks you can raise a 35 bet to 50? Second, if he didnt know that A had bet, then why would he have said "raise" if he thought he was first to bet?

my theory is that B didnt realize that A had bet, and tossed out 50 thinking he was betting 50. At the last instant, he realizes A had bet, so not wanting to just call, he blurts out "raise to 50" in hopes he will retain his option to raise.

So it all revolves around whether the floor believes the verbal raise was uttered in time to precede the chips. If he does, it's a min raise. If not, it's a call. The way the OP is written, plus my theory leads me to believe the chips probably were out first and it should be a call.
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12-31-2015 , 02:28 AM
#15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albedoa
Does your room really have a "1/2 of bet rule" as described in the OP? If not, then it's irrelevant. Also, "gross misunderstanding" isn't applicable.

This is a call and should be a standard ruling.
I think this is a rule that gets screwed up nearly as often as SOSA. Most rooms have a 1/2 bet rule ...but only for FL, not NL.
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12-31-2015 , 03:41 AM
#16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guito
I think this is a rule that gets screwed up nearly as often as SOSA. Most rooms have a 1/2 bet rule ...but only for FL, not NL.
I think there are two different rules that involve the half bet standard. In FL, if a player goes all in with an amount that is equal or greater to a half bet raise, that reopens the betting; but in NL it doesnt.

But in NL if you place out an amount of chips when facing a bet that is equal to or greater than the original bet plus one half the bet (IOW half or more of the required min raise amount) then you must complete the raise to the full min raise amount.

For example, if you are facing a 100 bet, and put out 160 without saying anything, then you must complete the min raise to 200 because the 60 is greater than half the original bet.

Al least that's the way it is where I play, and how RROP describes it. Are there rooms that dont require someone who puts out more than half a min raise to to finish the raise in NL?
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12-31-2015 , 09:21 AM
#17
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Timing is everything ... And the 'what if' game is only sometimes fun.

1) Some 'new' players actually say 'raise' when making opening bets. I have seen this many times.

2) I truly believe that the 'forward motion with release' rule should play a bigger role in a lot of rules in poker. A player should be responsible for their actions. Reclaiming released cards drives me nuts!! Granted this still leaves it up to the dealer when a player makes simultaneous verbal and physical actions, with the verbal having priority.

3) In this case the dealer needs to make a decision as to when the verbal action was attempted in relation to the chips being released. I see this in Craps all the time, the house never turns down a bet made with flying chips, even if they hit the dice. (Which is about as bad as making a bad decision at a Blackjack table!!)

4) Room raise rules apply to the chips released.

5) As OP described initially ... This is a call of $35.
5A) If simultaneous verbal and chip action, then this is a raise to $70.

6) Players not knowing the rules should never be part of enforcing the actual rules.

7) Other player's actions shouldn't change the enforcement of the rules. (Player C)

If Player B was so 'clueless' about the rules, then why would he be so emotional (stand up and loud) about the first ruling? How does he even think about making a $100 bet when it's clear that only $35 or $70 are in play.

The one thing that I see positive here is that OP doesn't mention anything about the other players at the table getting involved in the ruling. Well done ... GL
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12-31-2015 , 12:12 PM
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What are we doing if someone says "i want to raise" while throwing in calling chips and the chips hit the felt after he said "i want to" but before the word "raise"?
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12-31-2015 , 12:25 PM
#19
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We let him raise and look incredulously at anyone who tries to argue otherwise (assuming it is done at natural pacing and not something outlandish or Horatio Caine sunglass like).
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12-31-2015 , 12:57 PM
#20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex
What are we doing if someone says "i want to raise" while throwing in calling chips and the chips hit the felt after he said "i want to" but before the word "raise"?
As a general rule if they start speaking before it lands I consider the entire thing said in time. I say generally because I haven't had it come up, but if they were to say something not straight forward, like they start reciting a poem, or they make some other long drawn out statement that seems unnatural I would probably not apply this rule of thumb.

And generally I give them the benefit of the doubt on timing on anything that is close. In other words if I think its very close and would require some sort of slow motion replay to figure out whether or not they started speaking before the chip landed I would give them the benefit of the doubt and say that it was in time.
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12-31-2015 , 01:00 PM
#21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by browser2920
I think there are two different rules that involve the half bet standard. In FL, if a player goes all in with an amount that is equal or greater to a half bet raise, that reopens the betting; but in NL it doesnt.

But in NL if you place out an amount of chips when facing a bet that is equal to or greater than the original bet plus one half the bet (IOW half or more of the required min raise amount) then you must complete the raise to the full min raise amount.

For example, if you are facing a 100 bet, and put out 160 without saying anything, then you must complete the min raise to 200 because the 60 is greater than half the original bet.

Though I have never run into it myself, there are people here who claim that they have rules that if you don't put out the full raise it is just a call. So if someone bet $1,000,000 and you put out $1,999,999 it would just be a call. I think this would be a horrible rule and can't imagine what would convince a poker room manager that this makes sense.

Al least that's the way it is where I play, and how RROP describes it. Are there rooms that dont require someone who puts out more than half a min raise to to finish the raise in NL?
To distinguish I like to call the rule that governs whether or not you must complete to a raise the "Bet and a Half Rule" as opposed to the 50% rule which is the limit rule for whether an all-in bet counts as being a legal bet or raise.
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12-31-2015 , 02:53 PM
#22
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If the chips hit the felt first it's a call. If he announced the word "raise" prior to the chips hitting the felt he must make exactly a min-raise.
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12-31-2015 , 05:07 PM
#23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fore

A bets $35 (7 reds),

B (obviously not paying close attention to actions) picks up 2 green chips and releases them across the betting line and then says "raise to 50."

What is B's action/options?

What should the action be?


The actual rulling is below...
Spoiler:
A dual rate (floor/dealer) working the floor this shift comes over. After events accurately relayed to him by the dealer, he rules B can only call because $50 is not enough of a raise. B protests and basically says fine, but I want to make it $100 so is that enough? Additionally B stands and starts getting loud. The dual rate calls over shift supervisor (who is fulltime floor.)

SS hears the events but does not appear to grasp all the details. He does not realize C is in the hand (though he is immediately left of B and has cards visible), thinks the $50 was put in after other floor arrived, and starts to rule that B can raise any amount he wants since he announced raise (even though the raise to 50 came after the two greens were dropped.)

C forcefully folds his cards into the muck. (They go into the muck such that they are NOT definitely identifiable, but MIGHT be identifiable. It would be close.)

A nearly explodes and says that even if B can raise anything other than a min raise would constitute a string raise due to the $50 all ready being put out. SS says that would be true only if B had put them out earlier. A, Dealer and dual rate all clarify that B DID put them out and did so before saying raise.

SS reconsiders and gives B the option of either calling the $35 or a min raise to $70. B says fine I'll just call. Now C nearly explodes and demands his cards back because he would have the right "odds" to call a bet and a call and only folded because of B's 'raise'. But C's cards are not clearly identifiable particularly since dealer has ensured the folded hand was fully mucked.

SS reconsiders again and now rules B must raise to $70.

If we agree that the chips were tossed BEFORE the comment (as implied by "and then", it's a call.

Room Rules vary. In most rooms, it will be a call.

B should not have any options at this time, it's a call.
Spoiler:

Good for the dual rate dealer/floor getting it right.
Bad job by drdf and dealer for not making sure ss got the facts correct.
Bad job by ss for not making sure all the facts were known.
Bad job by C for mucking before action was on them.
Good job by A for speaking up when needed, and not actually exploding.
Bad job by SS allowing the option after knowing the chips went in first.
Bad job by B for not raising, when given the option. Had B decided just to accept a call, none of the rest happens.
Bad job by SS for declining B's choice of an option given to them by SS.
Bad job by SS for forcing B to complete an action that should not have been an option.

UGLY.

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01-03-2016 , 10:06 PM
#24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psandman
If the act of putting out the chips and verbally announcing the raise are simultaneous then the verbal act has precedence. Since he announced "Raise" is bound to a raise. in this case he is bound to a minimum raise.

If he put out the chips and then the verbal declaration was made ... the first act controls and this is just a call

These can be difficult decisions because people often have different perceptions of when the various things happened.
This. If there was enough difference in perceptions amongst the players, I would go with the minimum raise.
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01-04-2016 , 12:22 AM
#25
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The worst day art of this is they let multiple floors make different rulings, seemingly in reaction to how much a player bitches after the first ruling is made. This ended up ducking player c, who reacted to the first ruling. At a minimum, the house should reimburse his money because he acted based on a ruling that was later changed. If the player that threw out chips said raise anywhere contemporaneous to putting the chips in, which is most likely the case, it should be a min raise. Also, $7 out of the pot in 1 3!!!? Play elsewhere.
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