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What information can the dealer give me? What information can the dealer give me?

11-02-2015 , 09:51 PM
Game is $1/$2 PLO. I'm UTG+1. Action goes roughly as follows:

UTG calls.
UTG+1 raises to $10.
UTG+2 folds.
UTG+3 raises to $30.
UTG+4 calls $30.
UTG+5 moves all-in for $47.
It folds back around to me.

The bet is small enough to call, but only if I know I'm closing the action.

I am not sure about the exact raise sizes, so I ask the dealer "Can anyone behind me raise that bet?" He says, "I can't answer that."

So I ask, "Is that a legal raise?" "I can't answer that."

At this point, I figure it's easier to do the math myself than play 20 questions with the dealer, so I do that, and it's not a legal raise. No one but me should be able to reraise it.

The problem is that I asked for two reasons: to double-check the relative bet sizes and verify that no one else can raise. The second part is pretty important It's pretty close, after all. If the house has some kind of unorthodox rule that allows a reraise here, I want to know because it factors into my decision. (I haven't seen this question definitively answered at this cardroom yet.)

TLDR: Player is apparently all-in for less than a raise. When the action gets back to me, dealer won't answer whether other players behind me can reraise his bet, nor even whether his bet is a legal raise.

Two questions:

1. Should the dealer have answered either or both of my questions?
2. How can I request this information in a way that the dealer can answer?
What information can the dealer give me? Quote
11-02-2015 , 10:03 PM
My guess is that for (1) the dealer is told not to answer questions like that in order to prevent the dealer from inadvertently making rulings without a floorman present/ruling. As for (2)...

That's a tough spot. What you're really looking to know is whether the room uses the full raise rule or the half-the-bet raise rule. If I were in that situation, I'd politely request a supervisor and ask him (1) what your options are, and (2) if the raise from $30 to $47 reopens the action for all other players.

The floorman definitely should give you the answer to (1) no problem (which is why I'd lead with it as a sort of softball question to get him talking). But if the floorman doesn't answer (2), you're out of luck for the time being. However, you definitely can get the rule from him after the hand so you know for the next time.
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11-02-2015 , 10:07 PM
The dealer should have answered that is information on the current street. You probably could have asked for the floor if the dealer wasn't answering the question. There is nothing wrong with the dealer giving out that info he isn't violating optah or anything else.
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11-02-2015 , 10:13 PM
Dealer should have answered the question.

from RROP:

Quote:
9. A player, before he acts, is entitled to request and receive information as to whether any opposing hand is alive or dead, or whether a wager is of sufficient size to reopen the betting.
What information can the dealer give me? Quote
11-02-2015 , 10:13 PM
Part of what made this tricky for me is that I called the floor the previous week with this same dealer about a different bet-sizing issue.

The dealer was incorrect in that case, so I was vindicated, but it did make me sheepish about calling the floor to contest him again so soon.

I'm not big on calling the floor over the dealer's decision unless I know it's wrong, and I didn't feel that way here. There are definitely things he can't tell me, and I opted not to press the issue.

Spoiler:
I called and no one else even attempted to raise, so my question still wasn't answered. I'll have to ask next time I'm there.
What information can the dealer give me? Quote
11-02-2015 , 10:16 PM
Your first question, no. It's a question about how to play your hand as much as it's a question about the action to you. Because you put in the $10, you have all options open to you, whether or not it's a raise over the $30.

Your second question, especially since as you note there can be house oddities, is a bit more of a grey area, but I'd think "Is that a raise?" (or maybe "Is that a raise over the $30?") is neutral enough you should probably get an answer. But I wouldn't be too surprised if all you can get is a count.

The time to discuss whether or not it's a raise is when UTG+3 asks. (And then when the dealer says yes, to get a second opinion.)

You're probably best off not to ask anything, rather than announcing that you don't want to get raised. Do the math, put your money in (or don't), and if there's some local variation of the rule in effect, maybe you get a $37 lesson you didn't want, but at least you haven't tipped your hand so much.
What information can the dealer give me? Quote
11-02-2015 , 10:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirpupnyc
You're probably best off not to ask anything, rather than announcing that you don't want to get raised. Do the math, put your money in (or don't), and if there's some local variation of the rule in effect, maybe you get a $37 lesson you didn't want, but at least you haven't tipped your hand so much.
I usually am reluctant to give away the quality of my hand like this, but the big-picture scales tipped in favor of asking this time: texture of the game, players remaining in the pot, earning potential of this particular hand.
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11-02-2015 , 10:57 PM
Dealers should answer any questions about the rules.

"Does that re-open the betting?"
"Can I raise?"
"Does a flush beat a straight?"

Are all fine questions for a dealer to answer. Technically anything could potentially alter the way a hand is played so that argument is nonsense.

Last edited by Rawlz517; 11-02-2015 at 11:03 PM.
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11-02-2015 , 11:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapini
My guess is that for (1) the dealer is told not to answer questions like that in order to prevent the dealer from inadvertently making rulings without a floorman present/ruling. As for (2)...

That's a tough spot. What you're really looking to know is whether the room uses the full raise rule or the half-the-bet raise rule. If I were in that situation, I'd politely request a supervisor and ask him (1) what your options are, and (2) if the raise from $30 to $47 reopens the action for all other players.

The floorman definitely should give you the answer to (1) no problem (which is why I'd lead with it as a sort of softball question to get him talking). But if the floorman doesn't answer (2), you're out of luck for the time being. However, you definitely can get the rule from him after the hand so you know for the next time.
There is no half-bet rule that reopens the betting in a situation like this unless someone who is less than intelligent is misunderstanding the rules and making the rules in the room.
What information can the dealer give me? Quote
11-02-2015 , 11:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigsaw
There is no half-bet rule that reopens the betting in a situation like this unless someone who is less than intelligent is misunderstanding the rules and making the rules in the room.
I agree with you, but from what we've all read on here it does exist in some rooms.
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11-03-2015 , 12:23 AM
My general rule of thumb is that anything for the current street is answerable but anything from a past street or hand is not.

Had I been dealing, I'd answer those questions. Had I been flooring, I'd expect the dealer to answer them
What information can the dealer give me? Quote
11-03-2015 , 12:24 AM
Ugh+1 can raise the two that bet and called 30 can't unless utg+1 raises.
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11-03-2015 , 08:06 AM
I saw a floor person refuse to answer the question about whether another player could raise. I think its appropriate to answer but if the rooms floor thinks it can;t be answered then the dealer would not be out of line. I have no idea what your rooms policy is.
What information can the dealer give me? Quote
11-03-2015 , 08:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFizzbin2
Ugh+1 can raise the two that bet and called 30 can't unless utg+1 raises.
OP was UTG+1.
What information can the dealer give me? Quote
11-03-2015 , 08:41 AM
If you had just asked if you were allowed to raise, you would have gotten an answer to that question which actually answers the two questions you asked.
What information can the dealer give me? Quote
11-03-2015 , 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FearlessPhil
If you had just asked if you were allowed to raise, you would have gotten an answer to that question which actually answers the two questions you asked.
No. He (UTG+1) bet 10. He was raised to 30. He can raise.

Nobody else can raise.
What information can the dealer give me? Quote
11-03-2015 , 12:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirpupnyc
You're probably best off not to ask anything, rather than announcing that you don't want to get raised. Do the math, put your money in (or don't), and if there's some local variation of the rule in effect, maybe you get a $37 lesson you didn't want, but at least you haven't tipped your hand so much.
In NL I would agree with you, but in PLO I don't think it's worth 18.5BB because there's not a single hand that you would fold if the betting isn't reopened and the flop changes the world anyway.
What information can the dealer give me? Quote
11-03-2015 , 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FearlessPhil
If you had just asked if you were allowed to raise, you would have gotten an answer to that question which actually answers the two questions you asked.
No it doesn't. He could raise but the others couldn't (unless he does raise).
What information can the dealer give me? Quote
11-03-2015 , 05:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex
In NL I would agree with you, but in PLO I don't think it's worth 18.5BB because there's not a single hand that you would fold if the betting isn't reopened and the flop changes the world anyway.
Good point. I missed that it was PLO.

I still don't have a problem with the dealer declining to answer question 1. OP can fold, call or raise because the $30 has already reopened the action, and the question is about what the next player's options will be. I can't say I have much of a problem with answering it, either, but I do see the (perhaps overly cautious) point of view that it's not OK to answer.
What information can the dealer give me? Quote
11-03-2015 , 07:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by psandman
I saw a floor person refuse to answer the question about whether another player could raise. I think its appropriate to answer but if the rooms floor thinks it can;t be answered then the dealer would not be out of line. I have no idea what your rooms policy is.
Hypothetically, would it ever be proper for a floor to not clarify a rule? I get that maybe they aren't allowed to make a ruling before the situation occurs, but would it ever be approrpiate for the floor or dealer to not answer if asked 'Is the house rule here that a raise equal to the full size of the previous raise is required to reopen action?'
What information can the dealer give me? Quote
11-03-2015 , 07:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove
Hypothetically, would it ever be proper for a floor to not clarify a rule? I get that maybe they aren't allowed to make a ruling before the situation occurs, but would it ever be approrpiate for the floor or dealer to not answer if asked 'Is the house rule here that a raise equal to the full size of the previous raise is required to reopen action?'
In my opinion No. But apparently some think so.

There is a circumstance where I have an issue with it not so much because I object to the question being answered but where I object to the question being asked.

I have occasionally seen where a player asks a uestion and it appears to me that his objective is not to get an answer (because he already know sthe answer) but to use the question and answer to suggest a course of action to another player.

So a player asks "Can he reraise?" not because he doesn't know the answer .... but because he wants to remind the other player that he can reraise. But this is highly situational and requires knowledge of the players and/or picking up tone.
What information can the dealer give me? Quote
11-03-2015 , 08:10 PM
I admit to sometimes verbally verifying that another player has the option to reraise, sometimes to get his reaction and sometimes to under-rep my hand and pretend to be afraid when I call in an attempt to induce a reraise.
What information can the dealer give me? Quote
11-03-2015 , 09:43 PM
If we ask, "How much did UTG+3 bet?" is the dealer allowed to answer?
What information can the dealer give me? Quote
11-04-2015 , 12:33 AM
Depends on when you ask it and which round you're referring to.
What information can the dealer give me? Quote
11-04-2015 , 12:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by psandman
So a player asks "Can he reraise?" not because he doesn't know the answer .... but because he wants to remind the other player that he can reraise.
Why is this bad?
What information can the dealer give me? Quote

      
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