Was just thinking about it, would like some input about it from higher stakes players, or anyone really.

Players that are regularly playing high stakes like 10/20 NL and such, how does it feel to have to play smaller stakes such as 1/2-2/5-5/10 when your games arent available or they are no good?

I see theres a thread about someone asking about the play at 10/20 LHE and the tight selections for games at that stake. Is it really pointless to just play at the most populated stake if the game you want is no good?

Now Im pretty sure the most popular stake would be 1/2 or 2/5 so why not?

From my point of view as Ive said before, If I could play at higher stakes I really feel like my play style wouldnt change that much. How do you guys that can afford to play those stakes feel about this? or even moving down in stakes just for the sake of playing at a populated limit?

edit-I guess I get the point that theres not enough money at smaller stakes, but wouldnt you feel confident in being able to beat it and still make something?

A few years ago, I fell into some money and took a shot at playing 20/40nl (1 game, $6k)

I was more of an ABC-TAG player that did well at 2/5nl and thought that all I needed to crush the big stakes was the money. So, I took a shot but got owned.

Looking back at my "then" self, I did not have the skill required to beat that game. When you play at that level, there really are no "fish" like there are at the lower limits (unless an NFL player or celebrity is playing for fun). So, the poker bell curve for higher limits not only narrows, but it shifts left.

Now, I'm slowly grinding up and am transitioning to 5/10nl soon. I can see how my game now is superior to my game of a few years ago so i'm eager to work my way up to the higher stakes.

But at least now I realize that I have to "earn" it, that I can't just magically show up there and expect to crush the game. Because it is a different game, different dynamics, different villains, and a much different mindset required to beat the game.

Anyways, I know you wanted the perspective of a high stakes player, but thought there would be some merit giving you the views of a typical 2/5nl player that took a shot coupled with the perspective of hindsight a few years later...

Right now I play 5/10 and 10/20 stakes (high enough, i guess)

If I had to play somewhere where games were smaller, I'd probably do a lot of splashing around at first, bluff more, play looser, move all in with garbage a bit (like at 1/2).... but there would come a point where I would think to myself "I don't wanna be some goofball that just dumps money to these guys" and go back to playing more or less serious game.

There will be some adjustments that you'll need to make, too. A 1/2 game is very different from a 10/20 game.


dgi, 20/40 where? also, what did you see that made you get owned? were you just scared money?

Speaking as a dealer and player, the difference between 1/2 and 10/25 is night and day. Sure, the 1/2 game is a lot easier to beat, but so are the skills needed for maximizing your win rate very different in the two games.

For the most part, at 1/2 you can forget about putting a player on a range. You can forget about isolating a hand to one or two opponents. You can forget about representing a hand and buying a pot. The players often aren't sophisticated or don't have deep enough stacks to make any of those skills relevant. A 3-bet on a 1/2 table is the same as going all-in. If you want to win at 1/2 play TAG ABC poker. Play premium hands, or else limp in from late position when you can see a cheap flop.

On 10/25, the players actually think. And they have deep enough stacks to make moves possible. The stakes buy respect from the players. Even the ones with pockets lined with gold. You rarely see more than 2 players to a raised flop at this table. You never see more than 2 players to a turn. And you almost never see a showdown at all. Bet-raise-fold is how the hands go. Or just simply bet-fold. Not the bet-call-call-raise-call-all-in-call-call-call-call nonsense from the 1/2 tables.

I will occasionally see a 5/10 or 10/25 player sit down at a 2/5 game and lose a lot of money. The good 2/5 players learn to love seeing those players at their tables. They know the higher limit player is better than the game, but they're out of their element and they usually lose a quick 3-400 dollars before their seat opens up at the game they really want. They don't have the patience they need at the lower stakes. They can't seem to equate the differences in the chip values in a manner to modify their playing.

I once compared it to driving on a long road trip on an interstate, doing 85 mph for 10 hours, and then getting off onto a regular city street. It's impossible to drive 40 mph and feel normal. Same car, same brakes, same gas pedal, but your frame of reference is all screwed up. All of the players agreed with me.

Well said

this entire post is awesome... well spoken Bolt.

Great replies in here guys nice.

Especially DGI how you said you ran into some extra money and moved up and took a shot. I wouldve done the same thing, just maybe not that high of a stake lol. From 2/5 to 20/40 thats a huge increase, you being a 2/5 player i would assume you thought of bankroll management so you must have had quite a bit.

I like the way some of you make the higher limits sound. Nobodies there messing around like the 1/2 table where people are blind calling/raising and sloppy drunk etc.

But even high stakes players, I remember even Daniel Negreanu used to play micro stakes on PS for fun, I think he said it kept him connected with people that were in the "grind" and nonetheless it was still fun. I guess its like a NBA player going to his home court and having a game with the neighborhood.

I feel like mostly everyone that plays poker, started at 1/2 in the B&M and moved up over time, rather than starting at a higher limit, so you should just be able to fall right back into it? or is it like an old girlfriend, too much hassle and your on to better/newer things lol.

Most midstakes players I see at the 1/2 tables while waiting for a game (with the exception of the whales -- also, yeah midstakes, the room will only run anything above 5/5 once in a blue moon) are capable of adjusting and crush pretty hard. The main difference I notice is that they are very good at exploiting their opponents, and will take lines against them specifically targeting them that work almost all the time. To the rest of the table it looks like these people are maniacs (especially after the fourth time they show some ragged offsuit six-gapper they've double- or triple-barreled), so they start betting and calling light and then get owned running third pair into second pair in 150bb pots.

Beating lowstakes and crushing lowstakes require practically opposite strategy, and it's actually fascinating to watch midstakes players challenging themselves to dominate a game of practically irrelevant stakes. It's probably useful practice too (crushing I mean, a 5/5 player folding their way to $15/hour at 1/2 is just wasting time).

just some perspective from a llsnl donk

It's funny, because the high stakes players who DO have success when they drop down in stakes while waiting for their higher game to open are the ones who acknowledge that they would need to change gears, but instead of making the right adjustments to a very patient style OR donking off a buy-in trying to play the way they play at 10/25, they go full blown the other way and turn off the brain and go straight gamboooool....but because they can't turn off basic poker concepts, they still know what they're doing, they only go super gambooool in spots where they have showdown value (pair/flush draw or nut flush draw) or where there is fold equity....what ends up happening is because people know that they are leaving soon for the higher stakes games, and because there are lots of low stakes players who suck and just see a normally 10/25 player raising with suited connectors or ace-rag types, and also shoving twice an orbit and assume he's doing it with anything...so they call off super light and get pissed...

So if you're dropping down and can't really fathom how to play such ******edly bad players, then just turn the brain off and pretend you're the rich asain gamboooool but do it with some common sense and it actually will work...

Just don't do what I saw the other day...

A fairly young anti-social player wins a big pot with a bluff at 2/5 right after he's called for the bigger game. He shows the hand and says something like, "I was just waiting for the 5/10, I'm going to go play that now," as he's racking up the chips.

Why not kick sand in everybody's face while you're at it, kid?

Yea I can see if a player is waiting for 5/10 whats a $100 to him at the 1/2NL table. It makes sense that they would rather gamble at the 1/2 game and enjoy outplaying everyone....but geez have some respect lol. These higher limit players really feel like they are better than everyone else?

Pfap, I know that guy was just trying to rub it in everyones face that the outplayed someone. but thats just wrong. I dont mean to sound like a "goody goody" but thats uncalled for. I hope he got crushed at 5/10. Theres a ton of poeple that make a living off of small stakes. People that I always see at 1/2 with atleast 3x the max buy in everytime i go to the casino. Your either really good at poker or have a good family.

I just think that everyone started somewhere, so why rag on where you came from, if you have an edge or huge advantage keep it to yourself, frankly no one cares and everyone is no one at the same time. I just think that B&M is getting scummyer and scummyer by the year, almost to where its not even worth it because its hard to have fun with dooshers all over the place. OK maybe its not that serious, but seriously, how did this happen?

Again, this was years ago, back in 2008. I was playing at Lucky Chances. Normally, the big game up there is 10/20nl but that day, all the 10/20nl players wanted to bump it to 20/40nl and since it was my first time playing there, I didn't want to be the fish to object. Plus, I had $6k specifically to take a shot so I didn't mind.

How did I get owned? Well, looking back, I just wasn't that good. I was a Level 2 ABC-TAG player which is more than enough to beat 1/2nl and 2/5nl, but not near enough to beat the higher limits. I also didn't really understand advance concepts like relative position, 3-betting light, or basically any "atypical" lines that thinking players may take. Also, I wasn't used to playing against players that could match aggression with aggression. Normally, at the 1/2nl or 2/5nl table you can bully the table, raise in position, cbet and your villains tremble and fold when they miss...

But not at the higher limits... At the higher limits they didn't wet their pants just because I raised and cbet...

I also hadn't heard of 2+2 back then so I adhered to all the standard casino mantras and swore by them.

Basically, I was your typical donk who thought he was hot shtt because he could beat the fish in his little pond. I thought ABC poker was the "only correct way" to play poker and I was one of those "I can only beat good players" kinda donks. I also hadn't really done any in depth study of poker theory. In fact, back then I was probably a break even or slightly winning player (of course I didn't track my play, didn't even know that was possible )..

1. TV poker
2. Internet poker
3. General culture shift from "Be cool" to "In your face".

Unfortunately, I don't think that's what it was. I think he was simply young and insecure, trying to show that he was a good player, and then reminding everybody that he's a good player. He was looking for approval and praise. To many young people, this is a ladder everybody is climbing. They don't quite understand that for someone to win, someone else has to lose.

I think. I'm not a psychologist, but I see a lot of poker playing.

Maximizing EV at 2/5NL is about playing solid poker and doing everything possible to see lots of cheap flops with the table's donators. Make hands and get paid. It's similar to fishing.

Maximizing EV at 10/25NL is about aggression, image, and tilt.control. You HAVE to steal pots and pick up your share of the dead money to stay afloat. You cannot have an image that you can be pushed around. And you have to stay on your "A" game as much as possible, which can be tough to do with the higher aggression levels and variance.

Thanks bolt, that puts a very nice perspective on things and sums up a lot of my frustrations with the lower limit games...unfortunately, that's all my bankroll can handle Very good advice.

I respect what you said in the rest of your post, but this is pretty bad advice. The ranges may be wider and non-polarized than at 10/25, but they have a range. It is possible to isolate to 1 or 2 opponents. Cbetting does work. 3betting is not the same as going all in. And so on.

And I know you've dealt 8 quazillion 1/2 hands. If you think what you posted above, you haven't seen much.

+1,.

Yes, there are a ton of stations and fish in 1/2nl, but there are also maniacs, mice, and ABC players. Each table will be a mix of various player types resulting in different table dynamics.

In some tables isolating a spewtard will be easy, at others maybe not. As always in poker it will depend.