Ah. I should have known you were joking. I don't know about taking things too seriously, but I definitely take things too literally.

And just to be clear, you are joking, right? Some kind of Florida inside joke? Or you're just screwing with people for kicks?

I would be interested in hearing your ranking or at least grouping of those 21 rooms assuming you played similar days/time of day in each. Could it be that you are TOO comfortable in your home room and therefore not playing your optimal game? The reason I asked is that I found myself in a similar situation last year and it took recognition along with executing a game plan to overcome this leak.

I ask this since the games I've played at The Isle are the softest and most passive as any I've experienced. PB Kennel Club and Twin River (the new room in RI) are the wildest with chip dumpers everywhere but with that comes variance. At Isle it's like printing money with little risk as they all play face up.

If isle is toughest room for 2/5 in us, and I am clearly the best isle player. Does that make me toughest 2/5 reg in us?


In all seriousness though ,yes, isle is toughest room definitively in Florida, I can't compare outside of Florida cause of lack of experience

ps: stay off my table

Wanted to post something similar when I read the OP. Not sure what stakes you play TC but there are a few rooms in Florida that play much smaller than other parts of the U.S.; the Isle is one of them. It def impacts average pot size, winrate, and players in the game.

The Isle, like most Florida rooms, is also very seasonal and the games change with it.

An interesting thread.
One could posit, by extension, that the toughest rooms are "where everyone knows your name". (since they know your game a little better)
Or, another possibility, that the largest rooms are the toughest, because the best players are there.
I have, in my head, by area of the country, the toughest rooms, IMO. And yes, Isle is on there, along with: Parx, for a mid-Atlantic room, Commerce, for a west coast room, Aria, for a LV room, HR Tampa, for a west florida room. Throw in Harrahs Council Bluffs, perhaps because the players are either really LAGgy or super tight. Toss in Beau Rivage, because the lowest game is uncapped, making the better players that much better.
And all of this is my experience; my room count is +200.
I find rooms that have extensive use of props to be "tough" since they are notoriously nitty and not fun to play with. Which is why its refreshing to drive XC a few times a year to get away from NorCal, where everyone seems to know your name......

I was joking about the Isle being the toughest room in the US. There's no way anyone could ever measure that. But I wasn't joking about the overall message of my post. The Isle poker room is a tough room to play in. Although the room is in a semi bad neighborhood, the areas all around it are some of the highest income areas in S. Florida. A lot of the other rooms like the Hard Rock, Hialeah, GulfStream ect..are in areas that are much lower income and are filled with much less educated people. Those rooms have more fights, arguments, anglers and unscrupulous people. Of course those are the type rooms that have lots of gamblers and sick action as well.

All you have to so is spend a little time at the Isle and you will encounter many very educated, very smart, and very rich people. Tons of retirees. Those type people tend to be better players. Are there some rich whales that suck at poker? Of course. But the avg ability is higher at the Isle than most places IMO.

Most S.Florida regs that I talk to will agree 100%. Maybe one of these days enough of these regs will stop playing there and the whole thing will come full circle.

PS...I would vote Winstar as the softest room Ive played in.

Softest and most passive are 2 totally different things. Softest means its very easy to take peoples money. In fact a soft table will give you money. You dont even have to take it.

Yes, The Isle is lower variance for sure. But its not soft. You dont have people giving you a stack with KT vs AK on a Kxx board.

Places like Kennel Club and the Hard Rock are higher variance but they for a good player they will easily give you a higher win rate.

I played at the Creek occasionally a few years ago when I was just mucking around with poker. The game was certainly soft, but since they moved the room downstairs I rarely go back. I dislike smelling like an ashtray.

I can only speak definitively about the mid-Atlantic rooms, but I think Parx is the toughest room in the mid-Atlantic. Don't know why, but suspect it's because the poker room is so separate from the rest of the casino that you don't get a bunch of people wandering in, plus the fact that Parx isn't in a downtown area like Sugarhouse, nor is it a tourist destination like the AC rooms, so the people playing there have really sought out a poker room.

Softest room I've ever played in is definitely Horseshoe Hammond. I've played at 2/5 tables there where I'm literally the only person 3-betting hands worse than KK, and very common for people to buy in for $200, then limp/call 10-20% of their stacks pre only to play fit-or-fold on the flop.

Softest non-1/2 game in the mid-Atlantic IMO is probably the 1/3 at Sugarhouse (though I've only played it on weekends). I think what makes it soft is the $500 cap combined with the fact that there's a 1/2 game available for people who want to buy in small and a 2/5 game available (which is the biggest game in the room generally and not very soft), plus the fact that it's so close to the center of Philly that you get a lot of casual players with some money. Haven't played in the new MGM yet, will get there next time I have a business trip to DC.

I'd also add that the only reasonable way to think about this is not by looking at your winrate at any given casino. The sample is just way too small. Instead, judge it by your qualitative view of the quality of play, stack sizes, mistakes people make, etc.

That may be true for Hialeah, but it certainly isn't for Gulfstream. Unless you consider Aventura to be a low income area, lol. Not to mention all the people who live in the million dollar high rise condos all up and down Collins Avenue just a few miles away from the casino. There's a reason that Gulfstream took over the prime winter racing dates from Hialeah and has become the premier horse racing operation in the state, if not the entire southeast U.S.

There are pockets of nice houses in lots of places, but which is nicer and has more high income people in general? Hollywood area or Coral Springs/Parkland/Boca area?

I was asking since I feel from over 500 hours there that it provides both depending on game. I've had many call down their stacks with top pair in this room although on my last trip many of these players were in the 2/5 Pineapple game. The Isle is my top hourly room although a fairly small sample compared to my others over 2k but there isn't any playback at you like in more challenging rooms in the Northeast. That is why I was asking if you have self evaluated your play as I did last year at my main room when I recognized leaks through this self analysis of my game and by no means being critical of you. We can all improve.

The Isle does have a different demographic that frequents it that makes slightly friendlier than most south florida rooms. Most players are educated and polite and dont berate or needle, slow roll/angle other players. It happens occasionally but not often. The great thing about the Isle is that you can table select. I was in a juiceball 2/5 game last night and that is pretty common in the evening and on weekends. During the day its the opposite. I am trying to workout a schedule that has me never playing during the day but it is tough with a family. The other drawback is that unlike HR and Creek it is not open 24 hrs so you cant go at 5 am and get the steamers/drunktards trying to get even. Even with the high jp drop The Isle is one of the nicer and more accomodating rooms in the country. I have played in rooms across the US as well.

I'm a relatively newer player so my sample size is no where near yours.

I have no idea about toughest room in the US, but there are
better players at the isle, plain and simple.

Most of my luck has been at HR and PBKC.

The Bay Area has some of the softest games IMO.

But bigger picture, I disagree with both the "reg = tough" and "big rooms = tough" mentalities.

1. People frequently use the reg-rec dichotomy to suggest either someone plays a lot and is good, or they play infrequently and suck. Especially in places like the Bay Area where there is a large amount of disposable income, there are a large number of regs who suck and drive the games. There are also quite a few people who are good enough to play professionally but make more coding so they drop by to destroy the game a few hours a month.

2. When you play a lot with people, they get to know your game better, but you also get to know theirs better as well. Whether the skill gap grows or shrinks over time is a function of how easy it is to figure out your strategy vs how easy it is to figure out theirs. Many people have very basic strategies (some winning and some losing), that can be summed up in one sentence, like "play a lot of hands and have fun" or even "no set no bet."

3. Big rooms do attract the best players, but for bigger games. Sometimes they end up playing "down" when they're waiting for a table, but other times all the good players are at bigger stakes and the smaller stakes are super soft. These probably balance each other out at big rooms but at small rooms you may end up with people who could play much higher but don't. For example, the Oaks runs a 30/60 LHE game which is soft but disproportionately tough when compared to the Bay 40/80 LHE, because all the people who destroy the 40/80 can play 80/160, but only some of the people who destroy 30/60 can travel down to Bay. While I haven't played much at AJs, I will guess that the 20/40 there is tougher than the 20/40 at Bay for the same reasons. The NL games in the Bay Area are wonky because the ladders are short and flat - almost every room runs a 1/3 equivalent (1/1/2, 1/2/2, 1/2/3, 2/2/3) and a 2/5 equivalent, but then 5/10+ is rare so the 2/3/5 deepstack games are where the apex predators hang out and there's nobody who can put in 40+ hours/week at 5/10+.

Hollywood?? Are you sure you're familiar with South Florida? Gulfstream is on the Miami-Dade/Broward county line. It is located in Hallandale Beach and is a stone's throw from Aventura, Golden Isles, Golden Beach, Sunny Isles, and the rest of the beach communities along Collins Ave. That's where its clientele is coming from, not from Hollywood residents driving south.

And it's pretty funny of you to use Boca to build your case for the Isle considering it's 12-13 miles away. Hell, Bal Harbour is only 8 miles from Gulfstream, I guess I should include the Blue Bloods and foreign dignitaries who live there as among Gulfstream's clientele then as well, right?

Tough does not mean the same thing as tightest. The isle at anything lower than 5-10 is old nits who want to hand out and risk as little as possible. (so its like most vegas rooms). Its not tough at all - just a waste of time

Why is it a waste of time? Because its hard to win any real money there? I would say that makes it tough...ie smaller win rates

If I lived right down the street from PBKC like I do the Isle, I would never leave PBKC. Except to take my big shiny boat out on the water. Paid for my horrific Kennel Club players.

Because the regs there are not losing as much on average as they are in the many other rooms in the area

You're making my point for me. If Isle regs arent losing as much as regs in other rooms, then the Isle is a tougher room.

Ever do the math with the above, then include travel time to PBKC (say 2 less hours of play maybe? No idea extra drive time). I'd base travel cost on über. (Less stress driving too.)

Might it be worth it?

Just a suggestion.

Good post wrt to Bay Area games. Having lived and played in both the Bay Area and So Flo I can concur that Bay Area games are some of the softest in the world and probably has the best poker economy. The Oaks 30/60 was one of my favs. I think lhe is great at mid limits in general because so many of the reg players that frequent it have less interest in improving and are more interested in socializing and gambling. So Flo has a lot of disposable income and a lot of great poker rooms, but everyone is semi competent. I took a few years off from poker and was more of a lhe specialist so I am simultaneously learning NLHE, PLO and mixed games. The fact that I having taken a long break and others have played a ton of hands in the meantime is probably colors my perception.

I've played at Isle... saying the players there are better is kinda misleading... they're just tighter.

What do you define by "tougher"? You mean lower win-rate, correct? By that definition, I'd say the toughest rooms are 5/10+ in Las Vegas and 10/20+ at Commerce when it's 8 pros and 1 rec.

Commerce is overall the toughest room in the US.

1. The regs at Commerce are better than the regs everywhere else. The economy is drying up and survival of the fittest is taking effect with regs preying on other regs. Have fun playing 25/50 PLO 4-handed. The 5-10 games are even getting super-reggy now. Even Andrew Neeme can't hang lol. I heard 2 years ago the LA 5-10 was soft but it seems things have changed.

2. Commerce is ****ing tough. Angle-Shooters galore. Scammers. ****ing weirdos. Fist fights. Commerce gives me the feel that you somewhat have to be on your toes at all times. I like it. Iron sharpens Iron.


Just because your small town 2/5 game has 7 nits and 2 recs doesn't mean it's the "toughest room bro", just that your market is ****ing saturated.