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Should Someone Speak Up? Dealer? Other Players? Should Someone Speak Up? Dealer? Other Players?

08-10-2010 , 04:27 PM
This is a $1/2nl game at a PA casino and a hand has gone to showdown with 2 players left in the pot. The board reads 5-8-Q-2-9 with no flush possible. There are straight possibilities on the board that hit on the river.

Player A bets $30 into a $34 pot and Player B hesitates but calls. Player A flips over his cards as he says "Straight!" with enthusiasm. I look and see that he has shown 7-8off which is only a pair. The entire table is quiet including the dealer who is looking at Player B.

Player B shakes his head and shows disappointment. After a few seconds, he shows the person next to him his cards saying "Two pair. I had to call." He throws his cards in face up and they don't reach the muck.

The dealer then pulls Player A's cards closer to the board and begins looking for the straight. He can't find it. He glances over to Player B's cards and sees 2 pair. He announces 2 pair to be the winning hand and pushes it to Player B.

Player B is looks surprised and does a double take to see what Player A had. Player A has no reaction on his face and I begin to think he was trying to angle to get Player B to fold face down.

My question is: Should the dealer or anyone at the table have said anything when Player A showed his hand and incorrectly identified it as a straight? It seems like Player B almost folded the best hand if he didn't do it face up.
Should Someone Speak Up? Dealer? Other Players? Quote
08-10-2010 , 04:31 PM
Yes, everyone at the table should have said Player A incorrectly identified his hand.
Should Someone Speak Up? Dealer? Other Players? Quote
08-10-2010 , 04:32 PM
1. Cards speak. Player B should verify for himself what Player A actually tables before even thinking about mucking the hand.

2. Player B at least did the smart thing and tabled his hand.

3. As for the answer to your actual question, I wouldn't say that any player has any obligation to say anything, and the dealer probably can't say anything until Player B actually does something (whether it's muck the cards, or table his hand).
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08-10-2010 , 04:34 PM
I say something if it's tabled - but that's my own personal opinion and not affected by what might be legal/right according to poker room rules...

Actually now that I think about it further, the rules back up what my first impression would be: if plyer A had tabled a straight, but only said 'one pair', cards speak and it's incumbent on another player to point it out.
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08-10-2010 , 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astringent
...I wouldn't say that any player has any obligation to say anything...
Every player has the obligation to point out an irregularity. Misstating your hand is not allowed. If you see someone misstate their hand, it is your obligation to speak up.

That being said, Players need to protect their hands. In this case the cards did speak. The Dealer paid the winning hand and all is good.
Should Someone Speak Up? Dealer? Other Players? Quote
08-10-2010 , 04:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrducks
.

My question is: Should the dealer or anyone at the table have said anything when Player A showed his hand and incorrectly identified it as a straight?
It's the dealers job to say something.

I would say it's every other player's responsibility to say something, but if you don't want to, oh well. If you tell me I shouldn't say anything, then I would politely tell you that you are wrong.
Should Someone Speak Up? Dealer? Other Players? Quote
08-10-2010 , 04:45 PM
I hope the dealer got a nice tip for a job well done here.
Should Someone Speak Up? Dealer? Other Players? Quote
08-10-2010 , 04:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pot Odds RAC
Every player has the obligation to point out an irregularity. Misstating your hand is not allowed. If you see someone misstate their hand, it is your obligation to speak up.

That being said, Players need to protect their hands. In this case the cards did speak. The Dealer paid the winning hand and all is good.
Is mis-stating a hand actually against the rules or would it just be considered an angle in play? Shouldn't a poker player be able to read a tabled hand? I wouldn't think a dealer should declare a hand as anything unless both hands are tabled on showdown.
Should Someone Speak Up? Dealer? Other Players? Quote
08-10-2010 , 04:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astringent
Is mis-stating a hand actually against the rules or would it just be considered an angle in play? Shouldn't a poker player be able to read a tabled hand? I wouldn't think a dealer should declare a hand as anything unless both hands are tabled on showdown.
I know of very few, if any players who have never misread their hand, and similarly, very few if any haven't accidentally miscalled a hand.

Doing it deliberately would be shooting an angle.

Why wouldn't you want a dealer to call out a tabled hand? Nothing wrong with this. (By the way, sometimes dealers miscall hands too -- it's that human being thang).
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08-10-2010 , 05:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenProspero
I know of very few, if any players who have never misread their hand, and similarly, very few if any haven't accidentally miscalled a hand.

Doing it deliberately would be shooting an angle.

Why wouldn't you want a dealer to call out a tabled hand? Nothing wrong with this. (By the way, sometimes dealers miscall hands too -- it's that human being thang).
I'm saying Player A is shooting the angle, possibly, and it's Player B's responsibility to read his opponents hand and disregard whatever Player A says.

I think in this situation, the dealer SHOULD call out Player A's tabled hand... after Player B has acted, however, be it table or fold.
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08-10-2010 , 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenProspero

Why wouldn't you want a dealer to call out a tabled hand?
Because he wants to have another way to win the pot. He can't make a better hand. He can't bluff the guy out.
Should Someone Speak Up? Dealer? Other Players? Quote
08-10-2010 , 05:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astringent
Is mis-stating a hand actually against the rules or would it just be considered an angle in play? Shouldn't a poker player be able to read a tabled hand? I wouldn't think a dealer should declare a hand as anything unless both hands are tabled on showdown.
misstating your hand is usually against the rules in most rooms. A poker player should be able to read a tabled hand, unless they have poor eyesite and the hand in question is on the far side of the table, but it doesn't matter, as long as he blind player tables his hand the dealer will read both for them.
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08-10-2010 , 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngusThermopyle
Because he wants to have another way to win the pot. He can't make a better hand. He can't bluff the guy out.
ahhhhhhhhh, he wants money that he isn't entitled to. Now I get it.
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08-10-2010 , 05:08 PM
Dealer should say, "That's NOT a straight, he has a pair of 8s.".

Player B should not trust A and see the straight for himself before giving up his hand.
Lucky he turned them up, lucky the dealer looked for the straight... finally.
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08-10-2010 , 05:24 PM
Player or dealer, I announce the tabled hand every time, and correct any misinformation.

If someone has a problem with that, that person can bite it. You get no sympathy from your whining that I didn't help you steal.
Should Someone Speak Up? Dealer? Other Players? Quote
08-10-2010 , 05:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astringent
I'm saying Player A is shooting the angle, possibly, and it's Player B's responsibility to read his opponents hand and disregard whatever Player A says.
Absolutely wrong. Deliberately misstating your hand at showdown is not permitted, and anybody who sees it should point it out. And obviously that includes the dealer, whose job it is to read the hands as they are tabled.

From Robert's Rules:
Quote:
2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot.
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08-10-2010 , 05:28 PM
The real bottom line here, something I have been saying for a while now...JUST TABLE YOUR HAND.

Player B did the correct thing, he tabled his hand, even though he thought he was beat. It won him the pot the way he should have won it, with the best hand.

With the exception of the possible cheat move by Player A, everyone did their job here.
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08-10-2010 , 05:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenProspero
I hope the dealer got a nice tip for a job well done here.
The dealer determined the best tabled hand at showdown.
Should Someone Speak Up? Dealer? Other Players? Quote
08-10-2010 , 07:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astringent
I think in this situation, the dealer SHOULD call out Player A's tabled hand... after Player B has acted, however, be it table or fold.
No the dealer should read the hand as soon as it's tabled - especially when the player mis-states his hand.

"Player shows a pair of 8s"

I'm not a fan of the dealer specifically calling out the first player with something like "That's not a straight". Just a straightforward reading of the hand as tabled.

I'm all for players not in the hand staying out of it but players have a responsibility to protect the integrity of the game and should speak up in this case.
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08-10-2010 , 09:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenProspero
I hope the dealer got a nice tip for a job well done here.
I hope you're being sarcastic. The dealer did a terrible job by not correcting the first player's declaration that his hand was actually a pair of 8s. There are times the dealer (or the other players, for that matter) should remain silent but failing to correct a miscalled hand is not one of them.
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