2-5 NL.

Two limpers. The button then min-raises to 10. Both blinds call, and then the dealer scoops up all the money and deals a flop before anyone can say anything (and before either of the two limpers does anything).

There is commotion. One of the limpers lobbies for a misdeal. The floor / shift supervisor is called, and he explains that the flop will come back, and that the preflop action is on the first limper. Both limpers call.

Now the floor instructs the dealer to leave the burn card in place but to shuffle the stub and flop together before dealing another flop. The dealer does a standard shuffle, during which he exposes much of the deck to the raiser, who is sitting in the 5-seat.

The raiser immediately speaks up, asks the dealer to stop revealing the deck, and says that he saw the three cards X, Y, and Z. Much of the deck was obviously visible to the 5-seat, who appears honestly to be telling the whole table as many cards as he can remember.

What now?

All my best,

--Nate

Finish the hand, fire the dealer.

Ruling was correct. The floor was just careless in instructing the dealer how to reshuffle, and should have reminded him to bury the old flop in the middle of the deck, do a small scramble, and then square the deck in a face down manner prior to the standard house shuffle.

As for seat 5 seeing the cards, he revealed what he saw, and I'm not convinced he gains a huge advantage because he saw "much of the deck", even if he was lying. At best, maybe he could have processed 3-5 cards in the time it took to square the deck. I think you have to take his word for it and continue with the hand.

I am curious how this is possible. It would seem to me that bringing in money that is is front of 5 different players, burning a card and putting out a flop would not be possible in less time than it takes to say "Stop!".

One place I worked, I was instructed to put out the flop and then bring in the bets.

I absolutely refuse to do that now.

I was curious how it was that the 5 seat got to see cards during the reshuffle. Usually it should be the players at the ends of the table with a good view of a bad shuffle.

After a scramble the dealer squares up the deck on it's side facing away from the dealer.

And how does the dealer scoop up bets from five players without realizing that two of the bets are short?

^this

I observed something similar when a prematurely dealt river was being reshuffled back into the deck. I was in the 5 seat (not in the hand) and pot was heads up between seat 6 and seat 10 (seat number may not be exactly correct but one of the players was in a clear position to see a large number of exposed cards and one was not).

Dealer did a standard shuffle and the ace of spades was clearly visible to everyone in seats 4-7. There were 3 spades on the board so the sight of this single card gave a considerable advantage to the 6 seat (assuming he also saw it). I think this raises a couple of interesting questions:

1. Do I have a responsibility to speak up?
2. If I speak up, how should the floor rule?

He brought in some bets with one hand and then put out the board very quickly. It's hard to describe, and fuzzy in my memory. I think he maybe scooped in three of the five bets and then rolled out a flop without a pause after burning or anything. Again, sorry for the poor description.

All my best,

--Nate

That's a tough one. most are going to say yes, you should speak up.

personally, if I am not in the hand I try my best to not say anything that would influence play. it's really up to the two in the hand to police the situation. if seat ten didn't see that happen, that's kind of the way it goes.

that dealer needs to be checked...

It was a min-raise, so the 8 red chips didn't look too different from the ten that would have been correct. The dealer was distracted (or later claimed to have been).

All my best,

--Nate

This is curious. I deal bar poker from time to time (no formal training, just a student of the game) and always used to bring bets in before dealing the next street. Then I read on here a post by a regular poster who's a dealer (YTF? Steam? I don't remember) who said, with some authority, that it's more efficient to deal the next street then bring in the bets from the previous street. This got me to change my order.

Bringing the turn and/or river before quickly scooping in the bets is different from bringing the flop before scooping in the bets.

Always bring in the bets before the flop.

After the flop if I'm sure the bets are in reach and I'm sure I can scoop them quickly
before first to act acts then I will bring the turn and river before grabbing the bets.

Ugh.

Sometimes cards flash to some players but not all. In many of those cases, it is not clear to those who didn't see the card(s) that they might have flashed.

It is your clear and unwavering ethical obligation to tell the entire table every time you see a flashed/exposed card(s) that they might not have had the same chance to see. When you do so, you're not being a bad guy for influencing the play, you're being a good guy by making sure that dealer/player mistakes are not being unfairly advantageous to one or more players at the expense of other innocent players.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Results:

I was the 5-seat. When I tried to get the dealer to stop exposing the deck, the floor/supervisor told me that the dealer was following procedure correctly. I protested again that the dealer was exposing the deck (and to only a couple of players). He insisted that the dealer was following procedure. I turned to the other floor, who had walked over during the mess, and asked him to correct the first one. The first floor then made fun of me for trying to get someone to overrule the shift supervisor.

FWIW, I had J8. The first flop had been Jxx. The second flop was J85 and I stacked someone who held J7.

Thanks for everyone's input. I'd be happy to hear anything people have to say about the situation.

All my best,

--Nate

It may well have been me. Sorry. I was trained that way. I also did early burn/turns on a regular basis.

I now bring in bets first, except in heads-up split pot games, and every now and again post flop, but not often. I no longer do early burn/turns.

I also rap the table twice. Once before dealing the burn, once after, as I do a quick last glance around the table.

I tried to fight it, but I was instructed to leave half of the preflop bets out there. Thankfully nobody else seems to care anywhere else I've worked.

Which half?

Whatever was fastest.

In practice, I pulled in the late position bets, so I could focus on the start of flop action without looking away from the bets still to pull in.

So you are saying there is a shift supervisor that thinks the dealer is supposed to square the stub to reshuffle the same as he would square the deck. This should serve as notice to everyone as to why you always do everything to protect yourself from a floor decision.

Yup. The action is good, so I'll go back, but I expect no sympathy from anyone if I'm cheated or otherwise screwed out of money there.

All my best,

--Nate

I'm curious to know what your hand speed is and if you think this really helps you at all or is now just a habit. I've also often left bets out but not with more than three players and only after the flop. At the turn I scoop all bets so that when I put a river out I can do a stub count as I do at every river (obviously stopping if action is complete) even if I've already done two.

I deal 20 hands per half hour down of low-stakes fixed limit hold'em.

I don't think leaving bets out there helps much with speed. It forces players and dealers to pay attention to too many things at once, which isn't fair for anybody. As a player, I'm not making a new bet while an old bet is still out there anyway.

I'm pretty darn fast and efficient overall. I can afford to take an extra second or two to bring in bets, because other things I do more than compensate, and it's just a safer and cleaner game overall to ensure the pot is right BEFORE putting out a new card.

A stub count every river seems awfully excessive. Once or twice per down is really all that's necessary. But house policies are house policies.

It's not a house policy (though 2 min is and I think should be everywhere). It's just automatic. I wish I dealt more fixed limit.

Everything seems fine here except for the dealer who for some reason doesn't know how to shuffle cards. Why would he expose them to the 5 seat? Doesn't a normal shuffle keep the cards facing down?

I'm trying to figure out how this dealer was taught to deal...I just don't get it