At the Commerce a couple of weeks ago. Omaha8.

There are five or six callers to the river. Pot is around $120. No low.

I'm in seat five and flip over my cards. I have top two pair. I hold on to my cards and wait for everyone else to show.

We see a smaller two pair, a busted low draw, and some random cards. People are tossing their cards into the middle. Seat Six has shown his cards as well. Dealer starts collecting the cards and starts pushing the pot to me. (I always hold on to my cards until the pot is shipped to me.)

At this point, Seat Seven (who was not in the hand) says, "Wait! Seat Six had a flush. He had the six, deuce of clubs." Seat Six, who had not said a thing up to this points, jumps in and says, "Yeah, I had a flush. Where are my cards?!?" He leans over and starts pawing through the muck. Pulls out cards and flips over a six of clubs and a three of clubs as well as a couple of red cards.

There were three clubs on the board (which is still out). I do not recall Seat Six's hand at all.

I'm like, wait a second. I tell Seat Six, "I didn't see his cards and why is Seat Seven telling you your hand - don't you remember your cards?" I am firm, but polite.

Seat Six says that he was too busy thinking about his draw and didn't realize he had a flush. I say, "But you just flipped over a six and a trey, not a six and a deuce." He says, "I didn't say I had a six and a deuce, Seat Seven said that."

I say, "You didn't protect your cards. How can we know which cards were yours?"

So the Floor is called over. He asks Seat Six what he had and Seat Six says he had a flush, but does not remember his four cards. I tell him that I didn't see his hand and was focused on my two pair. Seat Six is angry, but not at anyone in particular, just being loud and worked up. The Floor tells him not to shout. I'm staying firm and calm. Floor sets the pot aside. Says he will view the film.

No one else at the table speaks up (after Seat Seven's initial comment) - either to confirm or deny his flush.

Floor then offers to split the pot. Seat Six says it's fine with him and I say I don't care. So it's split. I tip the dealer and the floor. Seat Six is more calm now and he shakes my hand.

What do y'all think?

I honestly don't remember if he had two clubs. But I would think that I would have noticed a flush if it had been shown. I'm happy that the pot was resolved, but wonder if I should have waited for the film review.

i think you got the ****ty end of the deal here....if he had to go into the muck to find his cards his hand should be dead. imo

I would not agree to that split.

The cards were in the muck. Dead hand is very head and why the floor ruled otherwise is beyond me.

Why didn't you wait for the floor to view the film? Since it seems no one could remember if he really did have the flush you could have still taken all the pot anyway.

I would have agreed to the split. I think it's likely that he had the flush, and if the film confirms, you get nothing.

The hand isn't dead if it was properly tabled. I think the floor is right to check the camera. He really shouldn't be proposing to chop the pot....that just seems like he is trying to get out of doing his job.

Yeah this sounds ridiculous. You basically agreed to a buy-out for a hypothetical prop-bet on whether the film would confirm or deny the guy's supposed flush. I mean, terribad floor decision aside (which you should never have accepted just on principle), you were >>>>>> 50% to "win" here (since no one seemed to notice his supposed flush).

And even if the tape confirms that the guy did have a flush and you lose the pot, that's just the rightful result, isn't it? I mean, I'd feel pretty dirty taking the pot if I didn't have the best hand at showdown (and let's be clear, seat six did FLIP HIS CARDS FACE-UP and SHOWED THEM DOWN, so it's not like one of those mucked-the best-hand things where no one saw what he had... someone/everyone saw but they just weren't paying attention apparently). If I were seat six, I would also never agree to the split.

Absolutely no reason to compromise (assuming the film can 100% confirm one way or another; if it can't, then it just makes the floor decision that much worse, because he should never offer to go the tape if it'll end up being useless anyways).

I can't quite tell if you're frumping because Seat Seven interjected (although not in the hand). Cards speak and he was well within bounds to chime in.

Having said that, yeah, you got hosed. Floor shoulda told him that since his cards were'nt readily identifiable (he wasn't even sure what his hand was) he really lost all claim to the pot, imo.

I'm guessing this was a small pot for the stakes for you to readily aggree like this. Also, with so many hands at the river, you obviously made a bit of coin, even with the split.

How are people really bad enough to not be able to figure out what their hand is...

Meh, Op may have felt it wasn't worth the negative vibes it would create. Assuming 6 to the river, he had $20 invested, so he still made $40. Op may have felt there just wasn't enough reason to go to war.

Also, as has been mentioned before, the cameras are often far from conclusive. The Commerce like 30-some tables, rigtht (never been, but I've read it's ridic)? So whether the camera catches the action on the table is likely a hit-or-miss proposition.

The more I think about it, Villain must be a reg for the floor act so "fairly" and to hold up the game to invetigate what should be a standard call.

Another legit reason I just thought of for OP to aggree to the flop is that they prob sat there awhile, and Op prob just decided to take what he could get and move on.

If the other guy is willing to take the split instead of going to the tape, then clearly he's not 100% sure he had the flush. So go to the tape.

Before we go down the road to decide what happens next, a key piece of information is missing.

Did player 6 table his hand? Was it face up on the table for all players and camera to see?

It looks like the hand was tabled. making it live. but then mucked (perhaps by the dealer), which would kill it unless it was retrievable. If it was retrievable, then it should play.
Overall, I think a good call to chop when offered.
The small (I assume) gain of fighting for the whole pot, would not be worth 1) possibly loosing the whole pot; and 2) the affect it might have on the mood of the table and how much action there might be per hand. If this is a tournament, fight for every chip, but on the cash tables, big fights over relatively small sums are seldom worth it.

There is a rule that states a dealer cannot kill a winning hand. If you table your cards, they speak and they cannot be silenced by being mucked.

Floor should not have offered the split, best hand wins, call surrvellnce and find out who had the best hand then push the pot that way.

Seat 7 had an obligation to speak up if Seat 6's hand was tabled, all players, dealers and floors share that same obligation.

If there were 6 players at showdown, potentionaly, 29 cards were face up at once, it's eas to miss a hand in that melee.

It's also very likely there was flush in that mess with 3 clubs on the board.

I think seat 6 and seat 7 are friends.
Seat 7 saw that seat 6 had the 6 of clubs and another player had the
2 of clubs and waited for the cards to get mixed together before speaking up.

Actually I think that players misread cards all the time. What Seat 7 said was the 2 of clubs was likely the 3 of clubs.


I noticed a card with a scratch on it's back the othr day during a hand. I called for a set up and took that card and creased it so it would be destroyed when he deck went back to the cage.

Someone asked who called for the set up and I explained that the 6 of spades was scratched so I called for the set up.

The player who had the scratched card insisted it was the 5 of spades, even as I held the card in my hand and I was looking at it.

LOL, have you ever played O/8 live? There are six or eight players at the showdown so you have twenty four to thirty two holdem hands on average flipped over and four of the eight players will be trying to "Help" the dealer all at the same time and a great debate will insue regarding the low hand. "He got counterfietted!", "No, he has a live four","No this guy has a live deuce!", etc.. and so on, LOL.

I am weak at reading the board live because the computer always tells me what I have.

I'm one of the best tippers in the world, but this just makes absolutely no sense to me.

This.

A tabled hand is a valid claim to the pot, whether later mucked or not. All players have an obligation to ensure that at showdown the board and hands are read correctly.

Go the tape. Let the best hand win.

The usefulness of tape is highly overestimated.

Some systems are just good enough to verify that the dealer is taking the drop.

I had a somewhat similar situation recently. I rivered a flush (4 flush on board) and my opponent had a straight (and trip aces, on AAKQJ board). At showdown I flipped over my hand, opponent flipped over his hand, dealer takes my cards and throws it into the muck face down.

I say, "WAIT ! I had a flush !"
3 other players at the table confirm they saw my flush. The dealer apologized and said she was just looking at the three aces (even though he had a straight :/ ) and they called the floor. The pot was shipped to me even though my hand was in the muck, since other players confirmed they saw a flush.

mehhh probably not. More often than not, the guy is offering to split it to keep the game going, and to keep it friendly. There was nothing in the OP that suggests this was an angle shoot.

If his hand was tabled it should speak for itself. Get the floor to review the tapes to check for the hand. I wouldn't forfeit half the pot unless you're unsure whether he had the flush or not...

You don't play much live poker, do you? I'd venture to say that everyone has misread their hand at some point in their poker career if they play long enough.

Hell, even Ivey mucked a winning flush at the WSOP ME. He was so focused on the ace, that he never noticed the 4 card flush on board.