So this happened last night

I've been playing for many years and a brand new dealer was explaining the "forward motion rule" to someone
and I smiled and added, "the forward motion rule is ridiculous, since supposedly this betting line is real too"

The 25ish year old dealer looked at me all self-righteously and said condescendingly
"do you have any idea the amount of angle shooting you'd see without a forward motion rule?"
And I said, "yep, and there would be ZERO angles shot if everyone could just hold their ***** until the chips are over the line"
Why have a betting line if forward motion kicks in long before you reach the line?

You have a betting line, but it's meaningless if the moment I slide chips forward they are in the pot.

You can't have it both ways,
if you have a betting line, you should be able to "pump fake" for 20 minutes
and have it not mean anything since the betting line is supposedly the only thing that matters.
Sure, it'd be a jagbag thing to do,
but hey, we're playing a game and if someone can goad you into making a mistake, oh well
In football, no one says it's against the rules to draw the other team offside

If you have a forward motion rule, WTF do you have a betting line for?

I will die on this hill.

Pick one or STFU.

The only reason they do this is because they want to avoid fights happening everytime some idiot reveals pot deciding info too soon.
If you do that, you suck, and you need to live with it.

I am not an angle-shooting pump faker, but I just hate inconsistencies like this.
If someone were to pump-fake me, I'd just sit and laugh and say,
"until they are over the line I'm not gonna do anything, so let's go, in or out?"


Based on the casino's own rules if I bet $20 with the nuts
and someone lifts a stack bigger than $20 forward, and is intending to just say "call"
I should be able to cry out "forward motion!!!" they all must go on the pot! That's a raise!"
before the person can say "call"
Hey, how do I know they are gonna say call moments after they pick up their chips?


Forward motion rule is stupid.
You want to eliminate arguments, make the line the rule
and let those with less self-discipline live with their losses due to reacting too soon.


Betting Lines Matter!

I know this is petty, but it just grates on my nerves.
It's like the masking at restaurants thing the past two years.

It's not a betting line. It's a courtesy line, so that the dealer doesn't have to strain so much to reach your bets.

Forward motion matters.

Yes, exactly the same thing.

I hope you went to battle over that one with low level restaurant employees the same way you did with the casino employee.

The line is valid in some casinos and not in others

That’s very dependent on local house rules. In some casinos, the line is only a courtesy line and chips moving forward constitute a bet, regardless of whether or not they are across the line. In other casinos, chips are bet if and only if a player pushes them across the betting line. I have no idea if OPs casino has a hard betting line or not. If the dealer’s reaction is indicative I would guess it is just a courtesy line and not a hard betting line, but dealers have been known to make mistakes.

Whatever the rule used at a particular venue is, though, it is a player’s responsibility to know the house rule and act accordingly.

Personally I think OP has a point. There is certainly no need for a forward motion rule in a casino with a hard better line. IMO a hard betting line is a better option anyway. “Forward motion” is subjective. There can be disagreement about whether a particular action really is a forward motion. Across the line is objective - a chip is either across or not (with some ruling to deal with chips left sitting on the line).

Angle-shooting scumbags love betting lines. That's why forward motion is better.

I didn’t always think so, but having worked places that had a line and forward motion, forward motion should be all there is.

Betting lines suck and enable more angling.


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Today I learned "going to battle" can literally be one comment to a dealer.

Dealer told player 1about forward motion
I commented to player 1 that the rule is stupid since they have the betting line too
Dealer comments to me about possible angles
I comment to the dealer that if the rule is nothing before the line matters there's no need for a forward motion rule, they are contradictory rules

Conversations ended

Okay, now I see it, I totally "went to battle"

And I never said a thing to any low level restaurant employee about masks
since only a comatose human didnt see the absurdity of the situation
I merely mentioned it since it was another rule that made no sense.

This is quite a departure from "I will die on this hill."

mod: no more mask arguing, or I'll just start deleting whole posts. Take it to the CV containment thread if you feel like you must post about it here in CCP. Thanks.

OP is 100% correct. This has nothing to do with poker and is just plain logic.

If A happens then do X
If B happens then do X
If you can't do B without doing A and they both result in X; then there's no reason for B to exist.

Football teams can only kick extra points after scoring touchdowns or after scoring exactly 6 points on a play. There's no need for the second clause of that sentence.

Most casinos that have forward motion rules, the betting line doesn’t mean anything. It’s a courtesy for the dealer because some players are jackasses that short push the chips and we have to tell these miserable cretins to push the chips forward. Without the line they’d just push it forward a millimeter.

lol what? OP said nothing of the sort. He said "pick one or stfu" after the dealer already told him that one had been picked. He is the one adding the second clause in your analogy.

He is not griping over the redundancy of the rules, he is confused about the presence and purpose of a line.

OP- what casino is this? Are you certain the betting line is a hard betting line? As you state, obviously you can't have both a hard betting line rule and a forward motion rule, as they are mutually exclusive standards for when a bet becomes binding. So it's likely that either the betting line isnt a binding line, or the dealer is mistaken about the forward motion rule. But I find it hard to believe if someone inquired with the floor that they would be told "yes, forward motion prior to line is binding and chips must cross the line to be binding.

So where was this?

1. OP,you are kind of being a tool in the way you present your argument
2. The dealer is right. Since most rooms are forward motion rooms, a room that uses a hard betting line but does not acknowledge forward motion will absolutely see a lot of angling aimed at newcomers to the room.

You can't have both. A hard betting line means that chips are not binding as a bet until they have actually crossed the line. Any motion short of the line is meaningless. With a forward motion rule, once a player starts a move forward with chips, he is bound to make a bet, whether the chips cross the line or not. So it really is a choice of one or the other.

Our room has used many variations of these rules. A "super hard" betting line where every chip that crosses the line plays. So you cant reach over with a stack, cut out chips for a bet/call, and then put the remain8ng chips back. If it crossed the line, it played.

We had a hard betting line where if chips crossed the line, you were bound to either a min bet or call, but could take back other chips. And we have had forward motion, with the line on the table being just a courtesy line.

By far we had more angles with the two hard betting lines than with forward motion.

My homeroom I am referring to always has dealers clearly state
"if you carry chips over the line, they go in the pot, this first time is a warning" to players new to the room

but if you move chips forward, they also must go in the pot

It makes no sense to have both rules,
once they go forward, supposedly they are in the pot, thus making the line further ahead pointless

If the line is a "courtesy" line for the dealers, that's fine, but they dont say that,
they say if the chips cross the line, they stay in the pot.

I'm the guy at the end of the table who flicks the chips and cards closer to the dealer as often as possible
to help save their shoulders and back from reaching to the ends of the table 8 hours a day.
I'm actually a very kind and thoughtful player/person.
and I verbalize my intent before every action I take
specifically to prevent anyone from being confused by what I'm doing.
I'm the guy saying "call" before touching my chips so action can move to the next player immediately.
Doncha hate that guy who slowly cuts out $150 in chips in stacks of $25 and then finally says "call" when he is done?
Just f-n say "call" so play can move on. You know you're calling.

But idiocy like these two rules trying to co-exist at the same time drives me insane.
I expect common sense and a base level of intelligence from adults in charge (I know, that is going to send me to the funny farm someday)
There is no way to thread this needle that if you have a forward motion rule, you also need a betting line (hard or soft)

Fine by me, just pick one rule is all I am asking

To have both is idiotic

It's the burden I carry . . . I hate redundancies and contradictions and pointless protocols

So what casino/card room is this?

I have identified the problem.

I never said "pick one or stfu" that was just what I wrote here as to what my thinking is.

I would never be that rude to a person

My casino "enforces" both rules

GrandVictoria Elgin, IL

I suspect this is a vestige of a work around because someone would call, "string bet" if another player brought out chips, then reached back and got some more to assemble the bet without announcing the bet size.

While I agree that having both a forward motion and hard betting rule is 'conflicting' I'm going to open a (small) door to different types of forward motion.

Most of the rooms in the Midwest allow a player to 'cut and paste' (as I call it) their bet 'beyond' the courtesy line. Essentially allowing a Player to bring out as many chips as they can CARRY and cut out a bet from what's in their hand. You definitely can define this as forward motion, but all of the chips are not part of the bet until they are released and on the felt.

HOWEVER .. if a Player compiles a bet and pushes it forward over the line (or really anything forward) they are not then allowed to take chips off the towers when they stop pushing forward AND released the chips. This is a different type of forward motion IMO.

You also have the cases where some chips fall off the tower during forward motion.

Pump fakes? Sure. Push out a bunch of chips and then verbally announce a bet before 'release'? Sure.

This is still a spot where the rules have lightened up and puts the Dealer in the 'intent' business at times. And Floors in an even tougher spot since they can only rely on the (many) descriptions of what actually happened.

Hard betting lines are very much a thing of the past, but I'm not going to fault a room that still applies the rule if they're still holding on.

I like the 'cut and paste' betting .. pretty much allowing a Player to do whatever they want with any amount of chips until they are released/separated from the 'motion' of the Player. GL