Simply because it's significant action. What if UTG+1 blind raises? Can SB, BB and Straddle all pull bets back? IMO if the game allows straddles it is action.

I guess it's right to let a guy pull his blind back. I think its almost more like an ettiqutte thing. Dealer asks if you want to post. You say yes. So guy straddles, then you say no. Then dealer tells straddle guy to pull back straddle and post a big blind. Just sort of a needless delay, sort of like the showdown dance.

But I'd have to agree the rules allow it. Though Since usually the dealer starts dealing quickly after the blinds are posted, I could see a guy try and pull his blind back, doesnt get it back by the time the first card is out, and then another delay ensues while they argue about whether he pulled it back in time or not.

IMO just post and play poker. If straddles bother you that much, dont play. Whose to say the guy two hands from now wont straddle when you post behind the button? Or would the guy pull his blind back every time someone straddles?

[note: ninja edit to fix that I found the spot in RRoP that says you can't make up blinds on the button.]

Interesting mishmash of issues. I too play in a room where you can not post dead blinds on the button, and that is part of RRoP:
From a post made on another site, it appears that Bob C. at least believed that a missed SB should be treated as live. His explanation part of his rationale was that "no sane and smart player would wish to miss both the small blind and the button and post a live small blind if he could have simply played the small blind and the button for the same money". RRoP therefore agrees that SB should be live:

Dinesh, read rule 17 of the rules you quoted:

17. A live “straddle bet" is not allowed at limit poker except in specified games.

I assume most of us would agree this rule isn't followed.

As always important to know house rules.

It's not action at all until the deal begins, IMO.

Sure, let whoever wants to take back whatever blinds, straddles, or blind bets they want before the dealer starts pitching cards.

Are you saying that if a player puts out a blind raise, then reconsiders and takes it back before the dealer begins, you would force him to put it back in?

Haha, I almost included that part as well, just to be snarky about it. I've certainly mentioned here before that it is a weird vestige of a rule that I've never seen explained or followed in any room that allows NL straddling.

But the discussion about the issue is just as relevant in a NL game where that wouldn't be germane. Except of course that in a NL game you would be less likely to have a nit pull his blind back over being straddled.

I WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME THING. IF A PERSON WHO IS PLAYING 4/8 WANTED TO PLAY 8/16, THEY WOULD BE PLAYING 8/16. BUT AGAIN, THIS IS BESIDE THE POINT OF THIS QUESTION, AND I DON'T WANT THIS TO DEVOLVE INTO A DISCUSSION OF BEING A NIT[/QUOTE]

A) In my room the straddle has to be posted before the first card comes out. So technically you were correct here but as a floor I literally couldn't care less if a player who goes "ballistic" over this and leaves the game.

B) You aren't playing 4/8, you are playing 4/8 with an optional straddle. If you don't like that somebody can straddle, don't sit down.

C) I've never seen a limit game where a straddle increases the limits. All it does is allow one extra bet preflop. On the flop you're still betting $2, and on the turn and river you're still betting $8.


I never understood why people complain about a person putting money into the pot before looking at his cards. Do you understand that he is giving money away?

In my room you can't straddle once the dealer starts dealing.

What would you have done if the dealer asked you if you were taking your blind, you say yes, you post your blind, and then right before she pitches the first card the guy to your left throws out his straddle? Your protest can't be because "you wouldn't have posted", it has to be because the dealer already gave him his first card. Reason being, if the utg player can get his straddle out quick enough, then it's boo-hoo on you I'm afraid.

Are you really playing in games where your blind rarely gets raised? I'd rather know that the raise came from an unknown hand.

And you would be 100% correct.

OP: you can't have it both ways. You don't like the straddle? Then get to know your players and decline on posting your natural big if the guy to your left is a notorious straddler and come in from behind the button every time.

...but you know what's going to happen, right? You see, that's why being a nit IS an issue. =

It seems the rooms where the first card rule is bent there is a focus on if the straddle has received or seen his first card. Why? What if the SB looked at the first card and gave away info that the straddle picked up on and used to decide to straddle? Not likely but still.

In limit the straddle isn't much different than an UTG raise except for the fact that it's done blind. (ie no advantage whatsoever)

I'd be perfectly happy to have a guy on my left straddling every orbit.

He's putting up twice my blind and it doesn't cost me anything UNLESS I like my hand. In which case I get to play for higher stakes with a premium hand.

My BB is already spent.

Besides, I'm going to be on the button against a guy who's willing to post a double bet blind OOP in just two hands. Why would I not want that ?

The straddle is live, the UTG raise isn't.

Where I play the flexibility is simply a courtesy to the players in that sometimes the guy who is planning on straddling may still be stacking chips from previous hand, or giving an order to the waitress, etc and doesnt get it out before the cards start being dealt. Also, anyone except the blinds can straddle, so sometimes people wait to the last second to see if the button is going to straddle, and then toss it out if they dont. But as soon as he sees cards going out, they'll say straddle. It's really NBD and it's very rare anyone objects.

I've never seen someone try and look at their card and then straddle. At least where I play, that's more of a theoretical possible angle than something you really have to guard against. As I think about it, the only times I've seen someone object to a late straddle is when the straddler is a jerk, so they object just to piss him off. But otherwise there's usually a few card leeway given with no objections.

First of all, where do you play where players look at each card as they are dealt rather than both cards at once? Secondly, and more importantly, what information is the putative straddler going to pick up from someone seeing one card? Regardless of what that one card is, the sb could end up with either a weak or a strong hand depending upon what the second card is. And finally, even assuming that the sb looks at that one card, he's going to have to give off some sort of tell based on just that one card, and then the putative straddler is going to have to read that tell correctly and throw out his straddle in the two or so seconds he has before the dealer deals him a card.

To say all that is unlikely is a severe understatement. BTW, in a couple of rooms in which I play, you are allowed to straddle any amount, from any position, and at any time up until you receive your first card.

First of all, where do you play where players look at their cards one at a time as they are dealt? Secondly, and more importantly, exactly what information could the SB possibly give away by looking at just one card? Regardless of what it is, his hand could still end up being strong or weak depending upon what the second card is. And finally, even if we assume that the SB looks at just his first card, gives off some sort of tell based on just that first card, the putative straddler will then have to read that tell, determine what it means, and then throw out his straddle all in less than the two or so seconds it will take the dealer to deal him his first card. To say that this scenario is simply "not likely" is an extreme understatement.

BTW, I play in a couple of rooms wherein you are allowed to straddle any amount from any position at any time up until you receive your first card.

And id that player wanted to straddle every hand you would of done what? Cry? Go home?

Maybe you should get a new hobby. Like collecting stamps...

Tons of room are lax on straddle rules, and as long as it's clear that you haven't looked at your hand you can straddle.

Yes.

That's would be the difference.

And it isn't much.

In limit.

Is raising allowed? Do you want to pull back your BB if someone raises it as well?

Probably top 5 of all time worst posts and thought processes I have ever heard in poker. I would say man up or drop down in limits, but you are already playing the lowest limit game in the casino (most likely).......

This.

If you don't like a game with straddles, find a different game. As a floor or dealer I would get real sick of you really fast if you kept pulling back your BB every time your neighbor straddled.

To answer your question, its before the dealer pitches the first card, but it is weakly enforced most everywhere.

Everyone seems to have covered the rules on when you can post a straddle, so I'll leave that be.

As to your nittiness, OP, I didn't like straddles when I first started playing live either. They pissed me off because I wasn't rolled properly for the stakes I was playing. The last thing I wanted was someone bloating the opening bets. (This was NLHE too, so a straddle essentially doubles the stakes instead of just adding a couple extra small bets.)

After a while, I realized that I was the problem, not them. Straddles are ****ing great for the game. They just weren't great for me because I was scared money, and straddles put me even further out of my comfort zone. What I really needed to do, aside from putting together a proper roll, was learn to adjust to straddled pots. They're part of live poker, and you need to know how to deal with them, not pitch a fit when they happen.

Free tip: If you've identified a habitual straddler at your table, try to sit exactly three seats to his right. Now he'll be inflating the pot and probably driving extra action to you every time you have the button. You're welcome.

Somebody else's big blind, of course.

Original poster here...thanks for all the comments everyone. Most of them were constructive. I was asking for a factual response of what the rules say on the matter, which, the consensus seems to be that technically, a straddle should be posted before the first card is dealt, but that as a practical matter that doesn't always happen or isn't always enforced. That's what I was looking for.

Some, however, can't seem to resist the opportunity to go a little deeper and criticize a type of player they can't stand, a nit. As an aside, I will mention that there were other issues at play in this particular situation that I didn't mention because were not relevant to my question...namely, that I am not always opposed to a straddle, I was in this situation because there had been a history between myself the straddler all day long; this was just another situation where he was irritating me. If he had been straddling all day I would have moved, as some have suggested. To summarize there were other issues going on, as often is the case in poker, that led to my reaction.
And the other thing I didn't mention is that I am a regular in that particular game I was in that day, the straddler was a new guy I had never seen before, who was being annoying in a number of ways. Moreover, although I am a tight player, I am not as nitty as the question would seem to suggest. Finally, while I appreciate the advice, and I believe we are never too old or too good to take advice, what was not apparent in my question is that I am a very experienced player who is a winner in this particular game, in spite of a high rake, and I might suggest to all you players who hate nits in general, who say I'm bad for the game, you're damn right I'm bad for the game for the other players, because they all play too loosely and too poorly. We all have our egos and perhaps mine is inflated a bit, but results speak for themselves, and I might suggest that all you folks who hate, not necessary nits, but tight players in general, that maybe you should pay attention and learn something from that nit who beats up on you every day. Maybe you'd have better results. Just saying

You can play tight without coming across as a nit. Just imagine how much more you might be able to win then ....


If you reacted like this because a player annoyed you .... you let him win. He wanted to irritate you and let him irritate you.

I don't think anyone mentioned that they hate nits. When someone pulls back their big blind after the first cards have been dealt out because someone wanted to straddle, it is beyond something even the biggest nit in the world would have done. You can't justify your actions just because you didn't want to play in a straddled pot.

I can assure you there is nothing I can learn from a guy who tries to pull back his big blind after the cards are dealt out.