I've read a couple threads on beating the 1/2 live which pretty much states that TAG is right and keep bluffing to a minimum but I couldn't find much info on bet sizing.

I have a very hard time with preflop to limit the range and bet sizing.
My preflop varies from $5-10 depending on position and who is in.. generally $10 in late to push out the limpers and $5 in early incase someone 3bets (very rare).

Let's take this situation for example:
i'm dealt A/Ko on the button with 2 limpers and the binds. I preflop $10 to get called by bb(pretty common from my experience) and 1 of the limpers.

Flop comes Kd/Tc/3c obvious straight and flush draw possible.
Pot is $31 I get 2 checks .... i don't have a club so how much would be a correct bet here ?

From my experience i seriously have to bet 1.5-2x the pot just to make the drawing fold (primetime friday night donk fest is when i play) in a multiway pot. If you bet 1/2 or 3/4 the pot you don't know if they're calling you with top pair/low kicker mid pair drawing or in some cases "i'm bored maybe i'll get luckyy it's only $20 bucks".

Slowplaying/milking top pair at the 1/2 live has been disastrous for me but at the same time I don't want to bet 1/2 of my stack on the flop just to shut some people out. I feel like it's -pot odds when I play the 1/2 because the people are so loose

I know what you mean man. Tons of players at 1/2 games don't know how to size up their bets and how to interpret the size of other players bets. I've seen fish bet 20 bucks preflop and 20 on every street (and show down 2nd pair).

What I do is TAG and my preflop raises are 4xBB and if someone decides to straddle, it's 2.5x straddle. The extra 2 dollars actually make a noticeable difference in fold equity. To me, 3xBB has too little fold equity and 5xBB is a little too much to invest. I see the reasoning behind varying the size of your preflop raises but I think it's better to keep the preflop raises the same. Otherwise, when you play a tourney or move up, you might stick with the same habit which is bad for tournament or higher level play.

In your case, I would raise it to 4xBB preflop. With the flop, I would bet to take the pot then and there than try to milk it and risk getting burned by someone making their draw. In my experience, a slight overbet of about 2/3 the pot would make atleast one of the other players fold. If the both of them fold, sweet, take down a 20odd to 30 dollar pot. The bet can probably chase away the draw and the guy staying in has either A. King with bad kicker B. 2nd pair C. Pocket pair that failed to connect or D. Still has the draw. There's a very low chance he'd have trips or 2 pair as these players would reraise you if they did. Now, you beat most hands in their range. If you connect with the turn and make top 2 or trips, great, you know what to do here, go to value town. If the turn is a blank, I'd bet half the pot or slight overbet depending on the player. Lots of players, especially semi experienced, women, or older guys like late 30s to 40s would give up on chasing the draw. Most of the people who call in this situation are younger guys or bad internet players (quite often both). If they still call, I'm willing to give up betting on the river and see a showdown which top pair top kicker could likely hold up. If the turn seems like it makes their hand, I'd give up on the betting. If they call your flop and turn bet and the river is a blank I'd assume the top pair top kicker is good and make a value bet. Most of the time it is and the guy missed his draw or needs 3 half pot/slight overbets and a showdown to be convinced that his JT suited is no longer good. However, I've seen alot of pots where there's good action on the flop and turn and both players shut down on the river and showdown 2 missed draws or one guy bets and the other folds.

Hope this helps. Never try and milk top pair. Always bet to try and make your opponents fold. Then again, there will be times where donk calls you down to the river with 3rd pair and spikes 2 pair. There's no way you can read that

Every table is different. You need to find out what works for each table you are at. That being said, I'll just give some advice on an average imo table. I don't think 5 is ever enough in my experience. You are not going to thin the field at all, and won't define anyone's hand in any way. 8-10 in unopened pots is usually alright. Add 2 for each limper, on average. Like I said, every table is different, and there are some tables where you don't need to go this high, and others where you might need to add a couple bucks. Also don't be scared to throw some limps in with drawing hands, and even strong hands at times. Opponents make such big mistakes postflop, you don't always want to thin the field preflop. A small pocket pair will get paid off by a lot of top pair type hands when you flop a set, so don't always feel you need to raise with any pair pre. Fit or fold postflop, don't go broke if you limp with a big hand. Don't be that guy who's paying off light, and at 1-2 you should pretty much never be bluffing.

Postflop 2/3 to 3/4 pots is just fine in most cases. You should pretty much never be betting 1.5 - 2 times the pot unless that is your, or your opponents all in. One time an overbet is ok is when the pot is ridiculously small. It is ok to bet 15 into a 10 or 12 dollar pot, because you are going to be called with a whole lot of hands if you only bet 6-8. Money is relative to the average live donk. A lot of them are looking in terms of dollars, and not pot size. You can bet 10 into a 10 and have your opponent tell you you bet too small after they suck out, and then bet 65 into in a 150 and have the same guy ask you "Why so much?" Back to my original point, for the most part, in a half decent pot, 2/3 - 3/4 is good. Overbetting the pot to get people to fold draws is not your goal in poker. Your goal is to have them call getting the wrong price. Read David Sklansky's Theory of Poker, essential reading imo. Overbetting only lets hands that have your overpair/top pair type hands slaughtered call you.

As for your question in OP, I would bet 22-25. If you are scared of top pair weak kicker calling you here, poker is not for you. Find a new hobby.

I could go on for a whole lot longer, but I'm not sure I am very good at putting my game into words, so I'll just leave it at that. The best bit of advice I could ever give anyone is never stop learning. Buy some books. 1-2 is a bout as easy as it gets, just takes a little practice, and a little patience.

Good luck OP!

If you are playing TAG, you want to bet fairly big pf. You'll often have the best hand, so you want to get money in the pot while you have the best hand. I bet between 10-15 pf to open.

My real question is why on earth do you want draws to fold? What you want them to do is chase while not getting odds. A draw that is calling a 25 bet on the flop is making a huge mistake, which is money in your pocket. Don't push them off. In addition, if someone is paying attention at the table, they'll know what hand you have based on your bet and will be able to play you nearly perfectly.

Yes, they sometimes get there, but then you fold and they get nothing extra for their risk.

And as everyone else said, don't slow play TP. Ever. No matter what the circumstance. If you are in danger betting 1/2 your stack on the flop, you need to buy in for more.

$10 isnt much of a raise preflop. id probably make it $15. as played, id probably bet around $12 on this flop followed up by a 2/3 to 3/4 pot bet on the turn if a good card falls for us improving our equity.

I have not read the thread yet however I'll put my $.02.


This may seem wrong but is successful for me. Giving normal starting stack of 100bb I tend to bet more the earlier my position, however I rarely bet more than $20 preflop. Most of the time I'm around $15.

If I am deeper than 200bb I may bump this amount up if I think I will get a caller or two.

The idea is to get callers with your strong hands, not shun them away. With that said you must be prepared to give up on the hand if post-flop action dictates. Hand reading is extremely important. You will lose with some of your big hands however, if you can become a good hand reader you will be able to minimize your losses (i.e. folding) while maximizing your wins. Attempt to get in a situation where they have to and will call off their stack on a draw. Best feeling in the world. You got their stack in while you were a favorite, do it enough times you will win money.

I generally go from $10-$15 preflop. If the table dictates otherwise, I'll adjust.

Post flop I tend to try and insure that if I have the best hand now, nobody gets the proper implied odds to draw against me (due to the size of my bets). If they're clever, I try to bet enough to appear to be giving them the right implied odds, but in actuality NOT because I won't pay them off when the three-flush hits the river.

Not that these are new ideas. They're textbook 2+2 stuff. And in small no limit games, they work.

The games you describe, while occasionally frustrating, are the best games to be in. Loose and payoff-ey.

al

i've read a lot of books and no i'm not scared of TOP pair weak kicker.. that is what i want. When i bet becuse I only want Top pair weaker kicker, mid pair or bottom pair to call me and try to rid the flush and straight draws.


although it is a limit book I feel like "smalls takes hold'em" by sklansky was very helpful to my game. Yes 1/2 live is very profitable but my major problem is transition from 50nl online to 1/2 live. Nothing frustrates you more than a loose player sucking out on you because they don't understand what they're doing

You're worried about the conundrum of quagmires that can arise when you're faced with exceptions to the FTOP. These occur when a good draw, like a flush draw or open ended straight draw (or worse yet, a pair with a flush draw), suck equity out of the crappy draws and away from the best hand. Good friggin' luck with that in a loose game.

I'll "pull a sklansky" here and let others elaborate.

al

I'd rather take down a smaller pot than let the draw stay in and risk losing because he made a hand. It's not a good feeling knowing you made a 15 preflop raise, built a 50 pot, bet 30 on the flop, see a club on the turn, know your opponent made a flush and having to check fold after investing 45 in the pot. At a 1-2 table where the max buy in is 200, that's close to a quarter of your stack. I wouldn't mind letting my opponents chase their draws and count on them missing if I could buy in with 200 BBs since losing a pot that size would be less of a dent in your stack in terms of BBs in case your opponent hit his hand which would happen about 15%-30% of the time.

I find that most of the big pots that i've lost are not to grinders but generally to recreational players who don't care. Yes in the long run those people will spill their money to me but live poker is not a steady grind for me (i live 2-3 hours away) a lot of times i'll start with $200 build it to 350-400 and catch a horrible suckout that will drain most of it away.

Like most of you said earlier, my $5-10 preflop is too weak and obviously 20-25 is too high.

that's exactly my point. you can only buy in for $200 so building a pot with 45-50 is a good 1/4 of your stack but if you bet correctly .. say 10-15 people will call you because "oh it's only 10 bucks" so in order to place a meaningful bet.. you have to risk 1/4-1/2 of your stack. I usually take pots down by the turn unless i have the nuts

Quit poker then. Like seriously. If you would rather people fold than call with bad odds, then poker either A) isn't the game for you or B) you are playing above your bankroll.

When you figure to have the best hand and there are draws, you want to bet as much as possible that they will still call. You are giving them a terrible price ... its GOOD for them to call. Sure you might lose any particular hand and sure that sucks, but in the long run you will make money.

Never raise 5 dollars pf in a live game. Depending on the table, preflop raise to 12-15 is probably good. On this flop, I'd be betting 25 or 30 and hoping for a call.

And also, you don't raise preflop to thin the field per se. You raise (in this case) because you have position and a premium hand and your equity in the pot is high ... therefore, you want as much money as possible in the pot.

Btw ... there is some terrible advice in this thread, so I'd read everything with a critical eye (and that includes what I said).

it is good for them to call and i understand the point you are making but when you say "i'd bet 25-30" into this pot that's the same as what frank said about commint 1/4 of stack. From what i've read i see great points in every post so far and some no so great, it's all about sifting through it.

FYP.

Every time you don't let a draw make a mistake, it is like pulling money out of your wallet and handing it to him.

It's a great feeling knowing that on the pots you lose that you charged them a premium preflop and charged them big time to draw against you, but then didn't pay them off when they hit, thus charging them the max when they miss, but denying them any implied odds at all when they hit. You win some, you lose some. You are focused on results when it's your play that matters, the results will follow with enough repetitions.

You can always replenish your stack if you lose some, and if you can't because of a buy-in limitation, you should easily be able to adjust to the stack size limitations. If you're so worried about having a specific size stack in a small game, you're lost (and likely can't play any stack well anyway). And If you don't understand implied odds, you're super-lost.

There is nothing wrong with sacrificing some EV to keep variance down... so long as you still maintain a winrate you're content with. Not everyone plays with a bankroll, some do so with a budget.

This.

But... much of the answer depends on stack sizes (there is a difference between min/max $100 $1/$2 and say $100/$300 $1/$2). What game are you playing?

ten is to little imo. i normaly open for 15 or so. my games always have a lot of straddles so i could be biased

thoughts about reraising straddles? i never did like them...

yeah 10 is way too little. donks call that with any piece of the flop

15-20 is prob. a good bet to see where u r at

You shouldnt be betting to see where you are at, unless you are in a really complicated situation and stone cold bluffing. You should bet because you KNOW where you are at.

OP needs to rethink his ideas of range finding. He states on a KT3cc flop that he doesnt know what is calling him when he cbets, could be top pair, could be OESD, could be 2 pair, could be set. Well thats the point of poker. You have to figure out which if these it is. It's always player dependent, some people slowplay, some people semi-bluff, some people are just stations. Over time at the table you should see enough showdowns to realize who does what, or see enough postflop action to rule our certain hand combinations.

So next time you're up against a station you can comfortably 3 barrel a KT3xx board because you put his range on any king, and you dont care if a straight or flush draw makes it there, because you have already deduced what he *likely* has. Same thing for the tag who comes over the top, or the silent nit who limps KK every time and minraises you on the turn, etc etc.

Again, dont just sit there and wonder what they have, you should be able to figure it out honestly.

i always reraise straddles. Most of the time the idiot who is straddling is holding 4/7 q/2 or some random garbage. I see it as an extra blind when i'm dealt a premium hand.

from what i'm gathering, a good preflop is 15-20 correct?

Well even the fishiest of players instinctively knows to defend their straddle. The only time I'll *steal* a straddle is OTB with 0 limpers. Otherwise they tend to call 100% and then you get stuck with a whiffed hand vs a station fish who could have any pair.

Raise 15-20 against terrible players UTG in a live FR game if your intent is to just play ABC poker. Raise 8-10 OTB vs the blinds if nobody else has limped in. Personally I still like to raise various PP's and SC's OOP because people are just so bad @ live games position almost becomes irrelevant, and making it $15 with 67s blows, so I still try to keep pots small and hope I can win it multiway. Pretty variance heavy of course, my nights either consist of hitting home runs and stacking half the table, or walking away with empty pockets.