Yes, we've all heard you state before that you believe OPTAH should not apply at showdown.

And yet previously, in other threads, you've said,
Please make up your mind.

So that's one vote for "no, I won't be open-minded."

I see a distinction between theory and practice. In theory, I'm enjoying the path this discussion has taken over the various threads. In practice, I stick to the letter as dictated by the rules of the room. Can you not see how these viewpoints do not contradict?

Now that I've thought this through, I'd have to reiterate what I said earlier. In the casino, I've seen people bet, get called, and have the other player go to muck, and have a different player not involved in the hand ask to "see the hand". The dealer will ship the pot first, THEN flip the caller's "losing" hand.

Cards read, yes. But if the player didn't turn his hand up, then he's conceding the hand. In this situation the dealer is asking the player to show his hand, but I've seen (in the Borgata) the dealer take the folded hand, put it aside, ship the pot, THEN flip the conceding players hand.

What happened in THIS case is that the dealer MADE the player show his hand. In the casino where I play, they don't make you do this unless you want until AFTER the pot is awarded.

Sorry about the confusion, but let me make one more point. The ONLY time a dealer can say "you must show your hand" is to win the pot in atlantic city (this rule is BEYOND stupid).

So, if this EXACT situation would have happened in AC the dealer would/SHOULD have asked the mucking player "do you fold?" and if he puts his hand down, the dealer will then put it on the side and show it after awarding the pot unless it is the other player in the hand who asked to see it, then the dealer will show the hand BEFORE awarding it to a winner.

The situation WE are talking about is slightly different, and the key point here is that the dealer urged the player to show his hand, which in AC they would NOT have done. They would have asked him if he was mucking/folding his hand or not.

Finally, after writing and thinking about all this - if a dealer in AC asks you if you are folding your hand, you should ALWAYS show your hand, because the dealer is asking you because they are showing your hand anyway. You might as well flip it up and let it read to be live.

So, in my opinion, like I said before, I blame the dealer because of the rules I am used to adhering to.

I'm really interested in this discussion, if anyone thinks I'm wrong, please, point it out to me. I know I'm mostly repeating myself but there were a few points I had to address to clarify.

The dealer should NOT have "urged" the player to show his hand. He should have left the decision to show his hand to the player.


-Wil

Surely the dealer should have either ignored player A or told him to be quiet.

No, it's a vote for you being inconsistent to suit your current whim.

You have stated many times that when you deal you enforce the house rules. I have no reason to doubt you. But that is not the same as "I prefer to not make up rules" as was your response to someone wanting to - in theory - kill a hand for an infraction.

Can you not see how proposing - in theory - to change current practice or interpretation is making up rules?

On the hand in question - and your fetish about how OPTAH should not apply at showdown - a hand does not end until either only player has cards or all who wish to make a claim to a pot have shown their cards (that's what makes it a showdown). In the case of the former the player with cards wins the pot, in the latter it is in the best interest of all that everyone makes sure the best hand wins. I am generally not a rules nit, but I see no viable reason to move the end of the hand to an earlier point.

And while I agree with you that there is no magical muck that kills hands, don't get me started on your magical ability to discern intent when it contradicts verbal or physical actions.