I generally agree with you.

Whenever I order a drink (or whatever), I try and put whatever I plan on tipping on the rail before getting cards to indicate that money is out of play.

That said, there have been a number of hands where I am all in (I always put all of my chips accross the line when I am all in) or I am thinking about calling an all in that has me covered and the waitress surprises me by either bringing me a drink I didn't order, or walks buy and I ask for a water and they have an extra on them.

In those cases I always ask my opponent in the hand if I can take $X amount back for a tip ($X being my normal tip amount in that situation). I also make it clear they are free to decline and force me to keep it on the table.

In most cases, X is a small percentage of my stack so it is immaterial, but I feel whatever you have in play at the start of the hand should be in play throughout.

Always try and be honest in my actions. A bad reputation is not worth a few dollars. That said, anything I tip when out of a hand is free game.

So your solution is to go south before the hand starts? I won’t or rather you tip out of your stack mid hand than pull money out of play. And you have rooms that allow you to pull money bet out of the pot? It isn’t that these are so horribad for deminimis amounts but again where does the room draw the line?

You solutions have solved nothing and in fact only open up new opportunities for conflict and angles.

It's a dollar. Nobody has ever in the history of poker cared about this completely normal and standard non-event.

Guarantee you some nit has made a stink about it

I agree no one should care about a dollar but when should we care? Also how do you know it is a dollar? The op certainly wasn’t a dollar. Even the post I replied to we don’t know it was a dollar. It was whatever amount he planned on tipping.

It isnt the amount. It is the slippery slope we introduce.

But I promise you pulling even one dollar back out of the pot will raise the ire of more than a few.

seen this with massages all the time. Its one of those weird situations where it seems like it should be against the rules and its kinda unfair sometimes when someone uses a large amount of their stack for something like massages/drinks/tips but it's so much worse to say something/harass them while being generous. Usually these people are good spirited and generous too which is why this occurs so definitely best to let it go

Seen what all the time? There are four scenarios at least
1) tip from stack before or while not in the hand-we all see this all the time. Usually for small amounts. Within the rules for all the rooms I know/play

2) tip from stack mid hand-most likely have seen this as well, within the rules of doom rooms but not others, enforcement more sporadic often depends on who is tipped and how much

3) pulling a future tip from a stack taking it out of play, effectively going south for a small amount-have to say I have never seen this sanctioned by a legitimate room. Otoh I don’t recall ever seeing it noticeably attempted. I co7ld see this happening, though not sanctioned, for a small amount

4) pulling back Chips already bet and in the pot-never seen such attempted for any amount other than the all in with immediately tossing a chip to the dealer-this is horribad for any amount but esp. once the bet has been called. Have heard/seen some similar deals but only at the higher stakes (doesn’t make it better imo though)

So again, which of these do you see all the time?

Two I contend are common and within rules or tolerated by many rooms. The other two are rare if ever seen at low and mid stakes (never seen by me but others have seen much more than I)

1-3 ive seen a lot... 3 primarily with massages ( someone gets a massage pulls off like 100-150$ and if someone says something is like I'm in for all the money I brought I want to make sure I have enough to pay her but will put it back on if someone makes a really big scene).

4 I've seen people try to do but almost always someone at the table says you can't take money out of the pot pretty quickly. . It's pretty common in bigger games to tip off the odd amounts before going all in though to make the pot easier to make/count/no change etc and if you have a problem with that you're probably insane but ya once the bets out there its already in the pot never seen anyone actually do that just do like an attempt to take some back and the dealer/player says they cant.

If anything 1 and 3 are legal and 2 and 4 is not since the only real rule is that isn't at floors discretion is you have to play for the amount you have in front of you to start the hand. Even going south is at floors discretion I've seen them allow someone from a broken game who lost at another game waiting to get in main game not buyin for full amount because he didn't have it anymore.

I've actually had someone call the floor over and ask about 2 before like "this didnt happen but hypothetically what would happen if someone tipped more than 50% of their stack" and floor was like it's at our discretion to allow it or make them put the money back on the table to continue to play but unless it's like his friend or significant other or something we're going to let people spend their money how they want and not penalize them for that.

What a great angle to determine V hand strength by suggesting that you want to take chips off your stack! You get a read anyway .. GL

Your description (now) of 3 is different from what was originally proposed if the massage is actively happening. It really isn't a future tip, it is at a minimum a fee incurred and due (plus a tip). But also it was described as pulling it off and setting it aside before the hand started.

I pretty much promise you that here if you said I am pulling $100 off to set aside for the massage I have requested in 10 min or the steak dinner I want to order, you would get laughed at and told put it on the table. If you can't afford to risk paying for "it" out of your pocket, skip "it". Of course the amount where this becomes an issue is very stakes related. But at lower stakes, about the only way it happens here is if you WAY cover everyone else

Also the rules around buying back in after a table breaks are quite variable. Some places would make you come back in a full stack, some would make you come back in at the max buy in if you were over and some would let you do whatever you want. Often the deciding factor is was it voluntary. IOW, if you voluntarily left you must keep the amount in play but if the game broke, you buyin resets. Certainly floors have discretion to invoke rule 1 as they deem fit. But I will promise you going south is specifically against the rules at any US casino or regulated poker room. How it is defined / interpreted may vary but all rooms have that rule.

Remember ALL rules are subject to the floor's ruling and he can invoke #1. Literally could cost himself a job if he were an idiot but doesn't mean he can't do "it".

I don't know what you are talking about but the situation in OP and what I was talking about was taking money off for an event that is currently happening or is in the process of happening like ordering drinks or a massage or a tip for a previous event but haven't directly paid for yet.... why would anyone prematurely take money off for something that might happen in the future they don't even know how much its going to be... pretty sure that's like the definition of going south as well. I don't even know why you brought it up as a scenario as it's not really relevant to anything I just assumed you meant like a tip for a high hand that just held up or something but he can't find the dealer yet like OP described.

I don't view this as an example of going south. When someone goes south, his purpose is generally to pocket some portion of his stack so that it's not in play and can't be lost. Giving a tip to the dealer is inconsistent with this purpose. Sure it removes chips from play, but the cash value of the removed chips is no longer available to the tipper. Thus, the removed chips don't benefit the player at all.

I guess my point is that I would not make a big deal about the situation. The player is obviously not trying to protect his winnings or limit his losses. He's just tipping a dealer who dealt him a hand that won a promotion.

FWIW, it's pretty standard in my room to tip the dealer $25 from a player's stack when he wins a "high hand" promo (generally, $250 for the highest hand in a 30-minute segment in my room). So tipping $170 on a $1700 payout seems within reason.

Nah some rules are written into law and enforcable by gaming commission even if retroactively. They're pretty few for poker and vary by state but have to do with bets can't be voided unless certain things occur and wager amounts and stuff like that though though. There's one in most states that says games are table stakes though to stop people from trying to do what they see in movies with people trying to bet watches or cheques and ****. I think when I saw it it said something along the lines of "The amount players are eligible to wager is the amount of chips the have to start the betting round" or something along those lines.

Every business says their word is absolute. It's even written into contracts often. It's never legal.

The situation of putting chips "out of play" was by someone else and described as "...I try and put whatever I _PLAN_ on tipping on the rail before getting cards to indicate that money is out of play." (emphasis added)

So this poster (not you IIRC) is pulling money out of their stack for something that "plan" on doing. Not are actively trying to do. It was also not limited to tipping a waitress and it wasn't limited to a service already recieved. He could very easily bust before that massage or drink or whatever was delivered. Does he now get to walk away with that money?

It is VERY relevant since someone posted they do it routinely and I contend, you are not going to routinely do that in most games. At least not for significant amounts.

That's why I said what you described was different from what had been proposed as "legal". You are correct, what was originally described is the very definition of going south which is why I continue to contend the rooms that will allow it for anything more than a de minimis amount are very few. Now what is considered de minimis might vary greatly by rooms and stakes.

Are you serious or just trying to troll or did you miss something in your reading?

That is a serious question. 99.9% of the time it is less than $5. Usually a couple of bucks. I have never seen anyone complain about someone tipping the waitress from their stack especially when they are not in the hand. Do you really consider that "going south "? I have literally never seen a room that had a problem with that.

As for pulling it from the pot, perhaps you ?missed the part where I mentioned it is with permission of the players remaining in the hand and that I make it clear it is ok to say no?

If I am all in for $304 and my opponent is thinking long enough that the waitress has time to come by and drop off a drink and me ask my opponent if I can take a dollar to tip the waitress, do you really think I am cheating somehow?

If my opponent is thinking that long, it is worst a close call. If they are far behind then I am only cheating myslef.

I know you are smart enough and have played enough to realize that you are completely misreading the situation. If so great. If not, I am literally laughing at you getting crazy for an overreaction.

I think it's definitely cutting hairs now .. a square is a rhombus, but 'nobody' says rhombus very often. So 'Going South' can be a rhombus, but in the OP's case we are definitely looking at a square .. a very specific, extreme, situation.

Going South is taking chips off the table that would otherwise be in play .. period. Now I guess we can go to another comparison, being speeding, that allows us to judge the degree of such an action as 'OK' or not. A Player is using these chips so they don't have to use some other method of 'payment'.

I think we can even cut more hair in that chips that are not bet already are different than chips that are committed to the pot. I'm very glad that JimL has suggested that we need to ask our opponents once the chips are in the middle, whereas we probably don't do so if we are still in control of our stack.

I never really offered my IMO in this spot, only that room policy would apply. But, IMO, I think this case is extreme and should be addressed if the 'Hero' intends to stay in the game. I would probably consider this on a case by case basis but more than likely not press the issue if the Player was a Reg and I knew that eventually the chips would be back on the table. And really in the long run, 'we' don't want this 'good fortune' event to turn sour and become a turn-off for future play or opinion. I guess when I say 'address' I mean that I would say something, but not necessarily 'fight' for the chips to stay on the table.


In the end does it really matter whether or not the Player actually puts said chips in their pocket before handing them off to whomever as payment?

What if a Player tries to take $20 off the table and gets called out? The Player states that they want to be sure to have $20 for gas should they bust! I would say that the majority of Players would view this much differently than a Player paying off a massage with the same $20 in chips. GL

Did you choose not to read all of what I wrote? As I have said much of this (not including pulling chips already bet out back out of a pot, regardless of what any other player says. I have never seen that fly anywhere for any amount, not even $1) is common, accepted and sometimes covered in the room's rules. But when the amount moves beyond de minimis amounts, things change. But the issue is what is de minimis.

Would I personally raise a fuss if you tried reduce your all in from $304 to $303 or even $299, nope. But I will say that in my normal room, I would never be allowed to agree or disagree. The dealers would uniformly stop you and tell you no even before you asked me.

In that rare case where it came up involving me, I either a) went into my pocket and tipped in cash or b) asked a neighbor player if they would tip for me until the hand was complete (even though this I guess is technically pinging).

As to your pulling chips off the table and setting them 'out of play', that is literally the description of going south. I agree that technically tipping from your stack is also going south but it is also explicitly allowed in many rooms (and implicitly in all rooms I know of). So it is slightly different.

And again, for some de minimis amount and de minimis time, no one is going to call anyone out (most won't even notice). But how much and how long before someone does make it an issue? Some technical rule violations are tolerated until someone decides to push the limits which is when floor will have to step in and likely invoke #1 because setting a hard and fast limit on amount or time that works in all situations is (near) impossible.

But being tolerated doesn't mean it isn't a violation.

You say 99.9% of the time it is <$5. How much is it the other 0.1%? When does it become too much? Can I pull off the table my $10/hr (2 tips to waitstaff per hour) for the next 8 hours for net $80? what if I only bought in for $100 and chose to do this immediately after I doubled up to $200? What if the tip I pull out (say $20) is for the parking valet for when I leave?

IME I have never seen the house allow even $1 pulled back out of the pot (at least not at low or middle stakes. At high stakes where all kinds of 'deals' happen it is a different world.) IMO this is not because the players or the house so much object to the $1 or $5 THIS TIME. It is because they don't want to have to deal with the $XX or more amount 'next time'. Better to just have a hard no than try to deal with what is the right max everytime it comes up.

Maybe I have only played in sheltered rooms (though it does approach 100 of them now) but I simply have very seldom seen players try to pull anything back and have never personally see it allowed in those rare attempts.

Yes. I 100% read what you wrote. You complained about me asking my opponent if I can take a dollar or two off of my all on bet to tip the waitress (BTW, no dealer will ever complain about a dollar or two leaving the table as a tip DUCY?), but then you also complained about me taking a dollar or two out of play before the hand and putting it on the rail when I know a drink is coming.

So you say that you understand a few dollars coming off the stack for a waitress tip is acceptable, but then you complain when it happens when I am in a hand and you complain when I do it when I am not in a hand.

If I cannot do it when I am in a hand and cannot do it when I am not in a hand, when exactly do you find it acceptable?

Try and be consistent.

But props and a big LOL to characterizing someone putting 2 dollars from their stack on the rail to tip the waitress as "going south".

That is hilarious, intended or not.

In all seriousness, I am the last person who would ever try and go south. I cannot remember the last time I played in a game where I did not consider myself one of the better players at the table. I absolutely WANT to cover the other players at the table. I want to take advantage of my opponents mistakes to the fullest.

I am more much more tempted to illegally add to my stack when I am over the limit than I am to go south (never done it though, not worth it).

I long time ago I tried to do the old tip from my wallet rather than my chips in order to keep as many chips on the table. I quickly realized that it requiredore effort than it was worth. Always worrying about change and such, just easier to use chips. Especially since a couple of dollars each way isn't going to matter either way.

If a couple dollars in a stack make a difference to you either way in whether you had a good night or a bad night then you should work more on learning to play poker than how opponents tip the waitress. I know you are a good enough player to get past this so I am really confused why it is hanging you up.

As for the miniscule times it has been more than $5, I can honestly say it has almost never made a difference. The only time I can think of it actually cost me.

I rarely get massages at the table, but on occasion I will succumb. Normally since this is a significant expense compared to my stack (and rare) I will pay for it out of the wallet rather than the stack.

The one time I remember is at a $2/$5 game. Preflop I was either in the BB or I had limped early. As action is going around the table someone raises. My massage finishes and I have to pay the masseuse. Since I was in for multiple buy ins and had won it all back, I had pretty close to the most chips at the table and I also had next to nothing in wallet. So as the preflop action goes on I give the masseuse $70 off my stack.

Action gets to me I call the raise. Flop comes, blah blah blah, there is some action with me either raising or calling. Turn comes and gives me quads. Action happens and the multiple players get their money in, including literally the last person on this earth I would ever expect to get all of their money in against me holding the nuts. He is too good and a player I deeply respect and I am good friends with.

Turns out when the dust settles, he has me covered by $50 or so. If I hadn't paid the masseuse $70 I would have had him covered. This was an extremely rare event that I only remember because of who it was against.

Have there ever been times where I have benefited significantly because I tipped more than $5 off my stack at some point? None that I can remember. However I have been playing poker for more than 30 years. There might have been a time or two that I don't remember, however I can 100% say it was never intentional because that is simply not how I roll.

Even $70 is not going to have any tangible effect on my life. If someone ever accused me of "going south" over $70 I would rather give $70 to the dealer/masseuse/waitress/whomever than be accused. Simply not worth the reputational damage.

So given that I am either talking about miniscule amounts ( a dollar or two) or I am am talking about a situation that is extremely rare and to my detriment, what exactly are you complaining about and what do you want me to say?

Like I said, you are completely misreading the situation or you are being extremely LOL.

You hit the nail on the head. The overall intent is clearly not to cheat.

Also, +1 for the use of the word rhombus. As a former math and geometry geek, I greatly approve.