That room most likely has the same wording for the rule as my room does. In that case they used a really weird interpretation of the rule to rule he had to put the money in. Having a rule book wouldn't help anyone in that spot.

The example given above about an over sized chip might have merit, but someone might very well read the section about putting chips in being the bet and not run into the section about oversized chips, so they can be misled by the rules. And this is the biggest objection, a player will cause a scene arguing a point when they don't understand the rule or try to apply the wrong rule.

I don't recall ever seeing on the wall of a Vegas room that enforces the betting line a rule that says they use and enforce the betting line, and how it's used. Super-strictly enforced, so simply picking up a stack and moving it over the line while not touching the felt is a wager for the entire stack? Or loosely enforced? Which of course is why most of the Monte Carlo dealers all have these little memorized and well-practiced speeches they usually give every time a new player sits at the table that spells out many of the "these are the things we do differently than everybody else" gotchas--none of those are on the wall.

I've only played a couple of places that had that nonsense and it was on the wall. Something like "The pot area is defined by the area inside the oval, once chips cross into the pot area, they may not be removed."

I play in AC, and most if not all of the casinos don't have rules placards on the wall. In addition, floor decisions aren't ACTUALLY finally. If you disagree with them, they have no choice but to bring the next guy up. This person will usually agree with the floor, but that's besides the point.

I recently thought of a situation where knowing the rules may have helped me. I was playing a game at the Borgata where the Button (on my left) has gotten up before the hand was dealt out, and a new player sat in an empty seat between me and the where the button should be. I thought it should be my button, but the dealer said there's a rule about a dead button, and I have NO IDEA whether or not this is correct because I've never seen the book. I could just assume the dealer is right... but it's been my experience that the dealer being right is about equivalent to a coin flip.

You were right you should have had the button becuase dealing the new plauer in would involve him coming in on the button. But your argument proves itselkf wrong.

You see you did know the rule. So you can't claim knowing the rule would have helped.

And I don't think any rulebook I have seen specifies that you can't come in on the button, its just a known rule like the rank of hands. (I just looked at Robert's Rules and it is not mentioned though you could argue that it can be pieced together from other rules).

Some guy you read about in a forum post says "if you raise I'll put you all in" and he's instantly a jackass in your book?

So basically you're saying that anyone you personally deem a jackass deserves to lose his stack. And you happen to be in a position to use personal discretion broadly where other peoples' money is at stake.

And ealier you said that players who want to see the ruules are akin to jailhouse lawyers.

I managed a poolhall for years and believe me I had some pretty unpleasant situations to deal with, but I don't think I ever had that kind of contempt for my customers.

Thats not what I said.

I said that if he didn't act like a jackass the problem wouldn't occur.


You see there is a difference.

You say you need to see the rulebook to protect yourself. But the case you cite was a case where the player could have protected himself merely by not acting like a jackass.

How you conclude that say he deserves to lose his stack is beyond me.

I don't think I worded it well. The dealer specifically stated to me, "The Borgata rulebook has a dead button, so we can leave it on the empty seat and the new player can come in now." I'm definitely paraphrasing, but she did include the phrases "Borgata rulebook" and "dead button." I've never heard of such a thing... but that doesn't mean it's not in the secret rules at the Borgata.

I am not familiar with their rules, having only played there a couple of times. But I suspect that the dealer is correct that the rule book includes the rule that they use a dead button, but has misapplied it here by not realizing that the new player is effectively coming in on the button (this is a common error). BTW for4 some reason some peole think dead buttion means the button is in an empty seat, but to me it always meant the button didn't move. Same result.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the debate about rules and a player's right to see them all. He lost his stack because he diodn't know an arcane rule that was probably unposted, not because he was a jackass or blonde or born on a Monday. His jackassness is irrelavent and you're making a logical leap as the saying goes.

Using your logic, he also could've protected himself by doing charity work for the blind instead of playing poker that day. You're just using his rudeness as an excuse for justifying him losing his stack and (inadvertently?) being judgmental in the process.

I suppose if someone is at a strip club and dies in a fire because the owner didn't maintain the sprinkler system you'd say they shouldn't have been there in the first place?

If no jackasses played poker the volume of posts in B&M would be about 10% of what it is currently.

The button not moving is a much better way to do it. It makes things much clearer. It is the same result, unless someone sits in the seat they want to put it in front of (that seat can buy the button, which means it needs to stay where it just was).

Am I missing something? Are these the best justifications for not allowing players access to the rulebook:

1. The rulebook is usually out of date. It doesn't include recent changes made my management that have been discussed with the dealers.
2. The rules are often vague or contradictory to each other
3. Most players who want to see the rulebook want to argue

Is your rulebook made of stone tablets requiring that a master carver spend weeks making them? What possible rational explanation can there be for not keeping the rulebook up-to-date??? When you make a change or update a rule, boot up the computer and type. What's so difficult about that? You're not making dozens of changes on a daily basis.

If you have one rule that contradicts another one - FIX IT!

If you have argumentative players and don't want their business, show them the door. But don't penalize everyone else just because you don't want to deal with troublemakers.

Nope. But i'd say that he shouldn't play with matches.

In most jurisdictions you have to submit changes to Gaming. It is not contradictory, it is just someone can apply some rule form a different circumstance and reach a completely wrong conclusion.

A common rule is "action out of turn may be binding." Does reading that help you in any way? There is a thread about someone action out of turn being binding, does that mean action out of turn is always binding?

If a player walks in and says "what are the rules to this game?" Which would be more helpful, a print out of Robert's Rules, or a pamphlet telling them how to play hold'em?

If you have to submit them to gaming -- then submit them to gaming. If you don't submit it to gaming then it's not your rule. I understand that there may be things in your book open to interpretation. Well, clean them up, and then refer people back to "The floor will make decisions in the best interest of the game."

Yes, knowing that there's a sheet of paper that says "action out of turn may be binding" may help me. I know the difference between "is," "is not," and "may be." I'm familiar with most of the "I" verb forms and tenses.

You keep telling us, "Ah shucks guys, it wouldn't make any difference to you..." Well, how about we decide that after we read it, 'eh?

We're not asking "what are the rules to this game?" We're asking, "Sir, this casino (like every casino that I've been in) may have unique rules that govern certain aspects of play here, specifically those regarding (but not limited to) betting actions, verbal actions, bet lines, and bad beats. May I please see your full rulebook - as I don't seem to see those things covered on that 10-rule placard on the wall."

The bad beats are on a separate sign on the wall. When we get to betting actions we are back to angle shooters. The rule is make your action clear when it is your turn. Needing to know how to fake a bet and not be bound or how to bind someone to an action they didn't intend is clear angle shooting. This is exactly what I am not willing to spell out for you. If you happen to have some morbid curiosity about what level of angle shooting is permitted I might let you see the rules when we aren't busy, but unless you are planning to make a betting motion and not bet or tyro to hold a player to something other than his clear intention you gain nothing from having these things spelled out, but the harm is great. For example if there is a rule "if you make a forward motion with your chips and a player behind you calls your bet you will be bound by the forward motion," you have opened up a new angle. By printing this up and giving it to the player it implies that it is ok to get chips ready and fire them into the pot of the player before you has some chips in their hand in an attempt to make them put the chips in the pot. When you start spelling out what will happen in the event of an irregularity it moves the occurrence from being an irregularity to being acceptable. Another example is "action out of turn may be binding." By spelling out for the players what happens when a player acts out of turn we are legitimizing acting out of turn as a strategy.

RR, I usually agree with your posts and I have a lot of respect for you. But on the issue of access to the rulebook I think you are wrong.

Poker room managers have brought a problem upon themselves because there is little to no consistency in rules from room to room. Let's consider the two big rooms in AC: Taj and Borgata.

Taj is gradually printing betting lines on its tables. Borgata already has them, but they are drawn far away from players on the bends. What do the lines mean? At Borgata some dealers say the chips have to cross the line for all players in all seat positions to be a bet. Other dealers say the line is far away from seats 2, 3, 8 and 9, so for these seats only any chips moved in front of the cards is a bet. A Taj the line is only a decoration - chips placed in front of the cards is a bet.

At Borg new players have to post to come in to a game. At Taj you can come in for free (unless you are the BB).

If there's no betting on the river showdown starts with the SB at Taj. At Borgata showdown starts with the last action.

In limit HE one room rules that putting if you put in more than 1.5 times the previous bet it is is a raise that must be completed, the other rules that it is only a raise if you put in the full raise amount.

And so on. You get the point.

If the rules vary from room to room, then the room managers should be a lot more willing to put them in writing and make them available to their customers.

Unfortunately, the only way we get to learn the non-wall rules is by being schooled after we run afoul of some surprise rule lurking in the dark.

AKA, "oh, by the way what you just did is against the rules, please give $100 to Seat 5."

Cop: "You know what the fine is for animal cruelty in this state?"
Clark: "No, officer, I don't."
Cop: "Well, I bet it's pretty stiff."

So in your mind you're protecting us from ourselves? Thanks, but no thanks.

You must not be a golfer, because the Rules of Golf are pretty complex but address just about every conceivable situation, and if a novel situation comes up then the governing body of the competitition can issue a decision. Golfers also play for some pretty big money at times, and somehow the USGA doesn't have to protect us from ourselves.

And I'm sure glad the government who has the power to fine, arrest, and imprison me doesn't hide the laws from us.

I believe I'll play online this weekend.

Grrrr! Again. You're not allowed to see the rules, because to know the rules makes you a cheater.

Again, this is like a gun ownership debate, where there WILL be rules, but the GOOD PEOPLE aren't allowed to have them

BINGO!

There are also course rules, like: "The water on hole 4 shall be played as..." or "The sidewalk out of bounds on hole 12 shall be..." or "Carts are only allowed in the following areas..." or "You must allow the group behind you to play through <condition>"

...and guess what? No secrets. Published. Printed. Available to any customer without the ranger assuming by default that I'm some sort of scum trying to put one over on the rest of my foursome.

Apparently the floorpeople develop a "beat cop" mentality where they're so used to dealing with the bad apples that they begin to think anyone they come across is a crook.

That I can understand and even appreciate but it doesn't make it right.

I suggest that floorpeople who think like this are no longer fit for the job and should find another position within the casino or elsewhere. Just because a player wants to see the rules, these floorpoeple are labeling them angleshooters and jailhouse lawyers on the spot.

Borgata still uses forward motion, the line is only decoration. Any dealer that tells you otherwise is wrong/lazy.

wat?

Taj rules is actually more common, why is beyond me.

Someone told me the Taj changed to the half bet rule...

I think they do all the time. It is published at what speed they can issue you a ticket, but tell me what speed they will issue a ticket down a given stretch of road.

Golf is a really bad analogy. Golf is a sport. Poker is not a sport. In golf we do not count the ball as being in the hole because a player intended the ball to be in the hole. In poker if a player intends to bet it counts as a bet even if he in some way didn't follow all the protocols that he was supposed to.

And yes, if knowing that moving chips forward and bringing them back is not a bt give you an edge by definition you are an angle shooter. There is no way to gain an advantage form knowing that rule unless you intend to shoot an angle. I have invited players many times to tell me what rules they need to know to help them play and there have been no valid responses.

There has been the story abotu the guy that said "if you bet, I will go all in" If he had followed "make a clear action in turn" nothing bad would have happened to hime. Same with whether it takes half a raise or the full raise for it to be a raise in limit, make you action clear and you don't need to know that rule. As far as who shows first, well I don't think knowing the showdown order will help you, but if you always wait for the dealer to tell you to show your hand you won't go wrong.

I really suspect some of the posters in this thread might not realize when they are shooting an angle. If they feel they need to know the exact words so they can say "hey, that wasn't a legal raise, make him take it back" they are planning to shoot an angle. If every one in the room can see what someone's intended action is and he if forced to do something else, he has been cheated. I don't care how much of a custom it is to cheat a person in a certain situation, I don't like it.