I've talked about this **** before. And I don't really know what I'm looking for here. May be I'm just looking/hoping for some like minded person to help me deal with whatever it is that makes me act like this.

This isn't a brag even though I imagine a lot of you will think it is.

I hate losing - everyone hates losing. But I hate it so much that I'm unable to play in games that are more appropriate for my bankroll.

I play a $40 fixed buy-in no limit game. And they take $4/hand off the table. I know how debilitating this fee is to my win rate. I think conventional knowledge suggests this game is not beatable in the long run. So, I should play a bigger game.

But losing 4 buy-ins ($160) is like a dagger to my heart. And posters here are always saying things like "lol stack sizes". Yup, that's the game I play in.

Here's the catch. I work 10 hours/week and my disposable income is $3500/month. I have 0 debt. And yes, losing $160, is a big problem for the health of my mind.

So, why am I not playing the $300 fixed buy-in no limit game? WTF is my problem? How do you guys deal with the losses? How do you build the confidence that random luck will take care of itself and in the long run you'll be in the black?

I ****ing hate it! But the $40 is the only game I can bring myself to play. My casino has these games - They're all fixed buy-in:

$40 1/2
$100 2/3
$300 3/5
$1000 5/10

Food is free when playing $300 and above.

Experience. Nobody overcomes a 500 bb downswing right off the bat. They win a little, lose a litle, win a little, take a 100 bb loss, win it back, take a 200 bb loss, win a whole bunch, shrug off a 100 bb loss, go on a tear, get slapped with a 500 bb loss, and they're OK as ling as they've built the history of winning.

your first step should be to change the word luck to variance.

I deal with losses very well because they are well below my comfort zone. I am losing money that won't matter to me even if it flew out the window.

Scared money will break you every time. Until you stop thinking about the kicks you could have bought with your loss just stay at 1/2 for now ainec at all. This game will ruin anyone who loves money too much.

That just doesn't sound beatable with a $4 rake.

the mtt community has been dealing with massive prolonged losing streaks as a matter of routine for many years now, and they've developed a support group for this type of pain that opens every sunday in MTTC

Simple.

If you cannot handle the mental stress of losing, even at the lowest limits, don't play.

Apparently there are issues other than financial involved here. I'm not going to try to analyze you over the Net. Until you figure out why losing affects you so much, stay home.

If you have $3500 disposable income and losing $160 feels like the end of the world you might want to look into finding a different hobby.

Right, but disposable income doesn't tell us anything; we need to know his discretionary income.

Not by itself but he also said he has 0 debt so the numbers probably aren't that far apart.

@DiceyPlay, you might get some good responses if you also post in the Psychology forum under General Gambling:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/26/psychology/

If you're willing to lose only $50 or $100 in a night as opposed to $150 or $200, you might want to check for home games in your area here:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/24/home-poker/

True, but many people think a mortgage isn't debt either, but it's entirely possible he meant he has $3500 in discretionary monthly income. If that's the case (or the two figures are close), then yeah, taking up golf sounds about right. Then he can get pissed off about other stuff

You are looking for a hobby. If poker is no fun to you because of your level of risk aversion, you might want to look for a different hobby.

If you are having fun with the $40 game, just play that and don't worry if it's beatable or not. Other hobbies cost money too.

Actually I would also suggest if you enjoy the game but not the risk, look around to see if there are any of these bar leagues around where you typically have no buy-in. They play free tournaments for prizes as a means to get you to come into the bar and buy some some drinks and food.

so play the 300, lose a couple buy ins and enjoy your $600 hot dog. do you see any flaws in this logic

find some home games with friends with no rake

Low limit games like 40 NL is a rake trap. If you're playing in it, expect to lose in the long run. Treat it as entertainment or don't play.

i think woodworking is gonna be more profitable than casino nl40

Honestly when people use the term disposable income I generally assume they mean discretionary. I guess its possible he has $1000 mortgage and 3 kids to cloth and feed.

Thanks for the helpful responses gents.

I cross posted to psychology - it didn't grow any legs there.

2+2 should have a rating system where everyone can rate posts and their responses. I dislike useless responses. I hate belittling responses.

It seems like some people just want to pad their number of posts or something and just write garbage.

I don't know why I care or why it bothers me so much - but it is a big reason why I just stop posting or even visiting 2+2.

would you like it better if I said the random variation inherent in games of chance make it so results are often divorced of quality of play?

Do you really understand what variance is? Variance of what?

I'd like it better if you tried to help me cope with the $160 loss. I intellectually understand that 160 is not significant when put into perspective and compared to 3500 - yet it still bothers me.

How is your post about a $600 hotdog helpful? It's not cute or funny.

Yes, my $3500 is after all expenses are paid.

I think my problem is this. And god I wish I wrote better!

I think it's a confidence issue. I really want to know I'm a winning player before I move up. And if you can't win at the lower limits because of the high rake/drop, how can I know I'm a winning player?

Another issue is that I'm an extremely frugal person. I've driven the same car for the last 15 years. I paid off my house. I eat all my meals at home. And when I have time I bring lunch with me to the casino. So, losing money hits me harder because I just don't like parting with money. At the same time I have no problem spending money when I'm getting value - on special occasion I'll spend $200 on a meal without regret.

On top of that I know I make mistakes at the table. Everyone does. pf, bet sizing, short stack vs. mid stack vs. big stack. So how does one bring himself to play the $300? I think I'm guaranteed to lose the $40 in the long run because of the drop. Am I guaranteed to lose the $300 in the long run because my opponents are that much better than me?

So far I've played 2360 hours of 3/6 limit, 4/8 limit w 1/2k, 6/12 limit w 1/2k, 8/16 limit w 1/2k, 1/2 NL $40, 2/3 NL $100 and some Omaha 8. My results are losing 36 cents an hour. Keep in mind that during that time I've likely paid over $35K in tips and rake/drop.

I keep saying to myself - OK, one day when you're really well rested go ahead and play the $300. Be willing to part with 2 buy-ins and just play. The problem is I can always be more well rested and when I'm walking in the parking lot I get cold feet because the $40 is right there - the comfort zone where I literally can't get butt hurt too much.

Is there anyone in the same boat?

Winning players do not think in terms of "luck". We don't go to the poker room to get "lucky" or to avoid "bad luck". There is no luck involved. It's called variance which has to do with the mathematics of probability.

A good winning poker professional will not have this word in his vocabulary. It's just a suggestion for someone who I thought was looking for advice. By removing "luck" and replacing it with "Variance", it makes those two outer losses much more manageable psychologically since they are part of the math of poker.

because you included this as an incentive to playing a $300 game which is way over your head, according to your post. Playing higher for a free meal when you aren't ready for it is bad. Play what you are comfortable with and eat pizza for lunch.

You have 3500 a month after expenses and negligible losses distress you. You need to stop playing poker and do something that gives you joy for the cost of the experience, because poker isn't doing it for you. There is nothing wrong with that.

And since this isn't a strategy forum I'll just sum it up by saying, you know you're a winning player, in games you have insufficient sample sizes, when you can mathematically substantiate the plays you make as having a positive expectation despite the short-term results.

Also, I'm not sure what 3/6 limit, 4/8 limit with 1/2k means. You sit with one or two thousand? 500?

You have ~50,000 hands played at various stakes. That's enough, in live games, to glean information about your win rate (though it'd be better to know the breakdown for each stake). Is 36 cents an hour + expenses a reasonable cost for your poker experiences? If not, you should find another hobby. It does not matter what your gross win rate is; only the net matters.

We use the term "variance" because luck implies that you have no control over your play which leads to no control over the outcome, whereas variance implies volatility in the outcome that over the long term can be overcome by the quality of your play.

Yes, everyone makes mistakes at a poker table. The nature of the game is such that we never have perfect information and therefore can never play without error, when viewing errors in light of outcomes. However, one can learn to make the optimal play in every case, where that is measured by making plays that will yield the highest expected value ("EV") in a given situation under the assumptions and conditions that apply at the time. The EV of a play is viewed over the long term and not just how a play happens to turn out in any given instance. For example, I get my AA "all in" preflop against a villain's KK, making the most EV play I can, and expecting to win roughly 4 of every 5 times this happens. That means that a not insignificant portion of the time, the villain will win my stack.

If you are losing 36 cents per hour over a couple of thousand hours, it could be that you are having a run on the bad side of variance. More likely, you are simply a break even player so far.

Regardless, your question (my interpretation) was "how do I get over the value of the money so I can play the bigger game?" I don't know the answer because I don't know how you think about money. I can tell you that every truly successful person I know -- in poker, or in business -- can divorce themselves from the absolute value of the money. No one would risk millions on a business venture (where they would be personally liable for the money if it failed) if they actually thought about the value of the money. They would simply park it and go play golf or whatever.

The same is true for playing poker. Your bankroll is your investment capital. If committing that capital is uncomfortable for you, find another investment (hobby) for that money.

If your feel that rake, tips and waitresses are really what is preventing you from becoming a winner in the long term, just start tracking it.

You will find out that you are paying $8-15/hour depending on the speed of the game, table dynamics and how much you tip. If you play 10 hours, nearly all of your $160 in "losses" can be rake and tips.

If you would be a break even or small winning player, stepping up might help to reduce this percentage and help you become a more consistant winner.

If the size of the potental losses still bothers you at $300, play less frequently and know that you have a better chance of taking home some profits.


If adding back in rake result in you still losing, just consider it money lost when you walk in the door and any profits are a bonus. The room is full of people who think they are beating the game but are really donating, keeping the lights on and paying for the $600 hot dogs.

These are great suggestions for most people, however, he said a $160 loss is "like a dagger to my heart" and he has $3500 of discretionary income coming in each month and it would take many more hours to find what his gross profits/losses are.

What's the point of playing? He can't stomach the variance and he doesn't need the supplemental income from the game.

He said this: "Another issue is that I'm an extremely frugal person. I've driven the same car for the last 15 years. I paid off my house. I eat all my meals at home. And when I have time I bring lunch with me to the casino. So, losing money hits me harder because I just don't like parting with money. At the same time I have no problem spending money when I'm getting value - on special occasion I'll spend $200 on a meal without regret."

Poker is gambling; it's gambling with an edge, but it's gambling nevertheless. The above description is a person who shouldn't gamble. He doesn't see the value in break-even poker and even if he could beat the higher games due to costs being lower and winrates being higher, he's going to take much bigger losses which he has a big problem dealing with in the short-term, budget or no budget. Quitting poker and picking another hobby that he "gets value" from is the best choice, and it's not even close.

I think OP really enjoys the game of poker( but unfortunately, can't cope with some of the inevitable parts of it). If you continue to play, no matter how good you are, you're just going to have really bad days, and you're going to get so stressed out, that, the once "competitive aspect" that you probably thrived on, and the "nice wins" that you often booked, are now being consumed by your own unhealthy and inaccurate approach to it all (especially the mental aspect of it), and, unless you can make the necessary requirements to change that, I'm afraid that you're just going to be headed for mental disaster.

If you're so frugal to the point of where you just can't cope with a small loss, then how can I even dare to tell you to keep playing?

Poker isn't just about knowing what hands to play and when to raise and when to three bet(cause you have this ungodly read on the guy). That's just a mere blip on the screen! The mental part of it, and all that that entails, is way more important, because, the "math stuff" is easy once you learn it, and, you'll probably never forget it once you learn it. But, the "other stuff" is tough, because, it requires you to think and rethink and to put your mind in all different sorts of situations...it's not "reliable" like math is, it doesn't have the "absolutes" like math does. You have to FIGHT to get the mental aspect of it on track. You have to have the ability, you just do. I can point you to a few good books(The Poker Mindset by Tommy Angelo is a good one) but ultimately, it's on you to absorb it and to have that ability to apply it. You can't buy the ability. But, if/when you read the book you can have a few "aha moments?"...then maybe there is hope after all because that says that you're ready to *understand* it. That says a lot right there, maybe even more than you realize.

If I had to give you advice on the fly? Stop playing cash games all together and play just MTT's with small buy-in fees. Once you're knocked out, you go home. That way, you'll know exactly how much money your hobby/passion is going to cost you ahead of time, and hopefully, it will teach you to have a better *mental discipline* towards the game. You'll be able to remain extremely competitive with less risk(on the pocket and the heart); besides, tournaments are all about being super competitive anyway and being really in control of ones self because it's all about survival. And Maybe that will fulfill your need/desire while also helping you when/if you venture back into the cash games. Lastly, never EVER play a limit that will send daggers in your heart and destroy your state of mind. Never! I know so many people who were surprisingly really good poker players but they just couldn't deal with the toll that it took on their health and their well-being. It's not easy. It's definitely not for everyone. Actually, it's probably not for most.