An error is an error is an error. The motivation behind the error is essentially irrelevant. Weak players make sub-optimal plays. Stronger players take advantage of those plays to make money. Psychoanalyzing WHY the errors are being made is only relevant if that information is needed to recognize the error.

OTOH, if you notice a female player taking advantage of those errors, maybe you can emulate some of the behavior of the person making those errors, but NOT soft play and thus prey on the female who thinks she's preying on you.

In short, don't complain about the woman's edge in these situations. Figure out how you can use that against her.

Soft playing is collusion and although I don't think anyone really cares if it's happening heads up in a cash game, your statement equating soft play to just any sort of mistake in poker here is a bit off.

Actually, it's not collusion in the example we're discussing since it's only one sided and there's no reciprocation.

What the heck? I responded to branch0095 as to why they're very different, and my post got deleted. I'm not repeating the post but men softplaying women is a different beast from all the other types of image-based decisions people make.

@Kurn - it doesn't really matter if it's one-sided. It still decreases the equity of other players at the table. Imagine this hand goes down in a tournament. Young woman goes all in on the river with a flush. It's near the bubble. Her opponent, typically a man, folds his nut flush because he doesn't want to bust her so near the money.

But even in cash games this kind of behavior is bad. I've seen men do this in multiway pots, telling the young woman she's beat. This influences the other players' actions as well. They're more likely to fold, or if they acted before the man tells her to fold, they just threw a bunch of money away that the young woman didn't have to.

And your solution is what, pretend to softplay the woman and lie about our hand strength to get folds? Pretty sure that will work at most once and then we'll be universally hated.

People exploit the inherent social nature of humans all the time. It is a very common tactic to be friendly to people at the table, as they are less likely to be very aggressive and ruthless with you if they see you as a friend.

Really, just take note of the player doing this, realize that he is not in this strictly for the money (a cash grinder trying to make his rent would check raise his own nana if he thought it would win him an extra bet), and proceed accordingly.

You think that's true even in a tournament? My post was very specific reply to the part of your post that I quoted. You made a general statement that an error is an error is an error, and I pointed out that it's not necessarily always true, even if no one will care in a heads up cash game pot. The fact that the guy is being overt about it is the problem, even if she is not complicit.

Shai, your admitted lack of live experience combined with a small lack of understanding how the real world works is not allowing you to process this correctly. If you could process this correctly you would play against these players in a very different and profitable manner instead of whining about it.

I, however, have lots of live poker experience, and a good deal of real world experience as well, and I can verify that deliberate softplay of the type mentioned is far different that those examples give of people getting folds or calls because of their appearances. There's really almost no comparison.

Of course, stewing about it doesn't help, but in case you hadn't noticed, this is a thread particularly for whining about pet peeves, so it is really ridiculous for you to tell someone he shoudln't whine about it.

A) You have no idea how I play against these people or whether it's profitable

B) You have no way to assess my "understanding of how the real world works" or lack thereof.

C) Nothing I have said has suggested one should not play adaptive and exploitative poker

D) This thread is titled "live poker pet peeves"--the entire purpose is to whine about aspects of live poker that annoy us. Right? Or wait, is my limited understanding preventing me from processing this correctly? God I feel so lost. The world is just so big.

Soft playing someone like that is wrong, that said I view it as the price you pay for playing with people who are bad at poker. God forbid I find myself in a game with players taking it as seriously as me, there goes a big chunk of my edge.

Three thoughts:

First, as to the bolded - a) we aren't talking about tournaments, and b) I'll go out on limb that unless you can cite an example of this you've, I call BS and say this has never happened. Maybe the guy "taking it easy" on the woman might just call with the nuts in a cash game, but in a tournament it simply does not happen.

Second, poker is 100% about deception. Of course I'll lie about my hand strength to get a fold (hint - it's called a bluff), and "pretend to take it easy on her", absolutely. How is that different from getting caught making a thin value bet, then playing a similar board texture vs the same opponent identically even though this time you have the nuts.

The guy that makes it "straight 5" after several limpers. Typically this player holds up his hand to provide a visual to the dealer as if the verbal wasn't enough. I don't mind it so much as I typically make it a stupid number after several of the limpers make the call and it gets to me, but I just find it annoying as the "straight 5" bet has zero merit other than to make a slightly bigger pot with too many players.

lol ive done that before degening at 1/2

usually its with a hand that can get a ridiculous amount of value if you hit, so like nut flush draws with A2s-A9s and baby flopped sets that are low and will never be won multiway if you dont flop set , so like 22 to 66

because a $30 pot is easier to GII than $12 (minus rake)

ive literally never seen women get softplayed to this level. lol at ever folding a flush for that reason. wtf year is this

if anything i see the older guys get tilted when a woman is playing and winning, they want to bust her ass.

It is sometimes +EV to make a pot-builder raise that will make no one fold. Sure, this can be exploited, but if you do it, it should be at a table full of idiots who won't exploit it.

Players who say "I fold" (then usually take an hour to muck) instead of simply folding.

Saying "I fold" lets the next person act sooner, such as when your hand isn't directly on your cards. It's worse when someone fumbles with chips then verbally announces a bet while pushing chips into the pot. Sometimes, the act of handling chips helps them to decide whether to bet, but sometimes, they already know how much they are betting and need to take forever to count out their chips. It'd be different if they don't want to verbally bet because they are concerned about giving off a tell, but when they take a long time, then verbally bet, it just feels like they wasted my time, especially when it took them fifteen seconds to induce an insta-muck.

However, saying "I fold" is rarely followed by a snap fold.

Agree with your pet peeve tho. And those players aren't doing it to not give off tells.

You guys are right. Apologies.

But it doesn't need to be. As long as his cards are with the dealer by the end of the round or when action is back to him, everything is good. If he still hasn't given up his cards by then, yes, there is a problem.

Agree with the verbal/physical bet business.

Gross guys who run to the bathroom during tournaments and return 20s later. I know you didn't wash your hands! It's disgusting.

Guys that smell.

Guys getting massages at the table and flirting with the massage girls. They don't want you dumbass, they are making $2/min off you. Pay attention too the game, so I can take your money.- And it feels really uncomfortable.

Women on a power Trips who think they are the best player at the table. Recently chopped 8 ways in a woman's tournament and this smug woman with the 7th largest stack was asking for more equity than everyone in the chop and refusing to chop because she thought she was better than everyone. I sat back and let some of the older ladies put the smack down on her.

Guys who think women are stupid and try to correct them after any and every hand like they are their champion and the woman is in need. *****, you have no idea what my cards were and what I was doing, mind ya business.

I have heard that the casinos generally take half of that, so the masseuse is actually taking home $1/min plus tip.

Sometimes, the guys are getting massages because they want to flirt with an attractive women who is physically touching them, with the actually benefits of the massage as secondary.

1. I watch my poker and life bankrolls carefully and I'm there to make money. I would not spend it on extras like a message. Actually, I don't play in casinos. I play live tournaments at local and area charity rooms (the closest is 10 miles away) and the nearest casino dealing NLHE tournaments is 100 miles away. I can play for about the same buy-ins at either place. Plus, casino food and drink is expensive, I can drink a $2 coke (with free refill) and eat a $3 burger at the charity room. I don't want expensive amenities, I want benjamins. When I at some point go to a casino, a poker tournamnent would be my only reason to do so.*

2. If my wife saw me getting a massage (interesting that they are always given by females) she would not be happy and she would certainly prefer that I spend that money on her than on a massage girl.

*I have actually played in a casino once, sort of. We stayed there overnight as part of a tourist package, and I watched my wife play slots with free tokens that everyone on the trip received. I asked about tournaments, and the guy told me that they had one scheduled earlier but didn't have enough players to fill a table.

Sounds like you are talking rules. I'm talking pet peeves. There's no reason to hang on to your cards. It's annoying. Give me a valid reason for not folding once you say "I fold" and I might not be so annoyed in the future.

And I'm still not buying that it's done so next player can act. If you say "I call" that allows next person to act while you take your time calling the bet. I'll on board with that.

My theory is the player hopes to see the next card so he can show how he would have one the hand had he not folded. Home games often players want to hang on to their cards. I think it's akin to that.

It can make other people tilt and make them play worse.