How do you react when a 'wronged' Player starts screaming at you? You simply state that it has nothing to do with the 'who' and everything to do with being fair. Ask them point blank if they would like you to remain silent if the roles were reversed. Their answer is not relevant but hopefully once they think about it they will understand.

As stated above, no one is telling you that you need to pay 100% attention to the game and catch, and correct, every mistake. The issue is that when you are aware of a mistake, that you speak up.

There are other threads for the flashing card situations. This is definitely a spot that is evolving and has two distinct spots .. one, when a card flashes during the deal and two, when a Player 'exposes' a card by their own doing. GL

Easiest solution is to state your objection in the form of a question. Did the right hand win? Doesn't the ace play? Something like that?

Bonus, if you are wrong, imagine what that does to your table image.

I know some of you won't agree here, but being paid an incorrect amount is different than taking someone's wallet. The difference is in the intent.

I'll repeat one more time that in 20 years that I've been playing poker, I've never seen a brochure, nor have I've never seen a piece of paper with poker rules and I've surely never, ever PURPOSELY tried to take another player's money unfairly on the felt my entire life.

Have I taken an extended break at work when I should have been working? Yes. Have I taken home work materials like utensils and folders and never brought them back? Yes. Have I gone to a restaurant with another couple and the bill was split evenly even though I had an extra beverage or ate a bigger share of an appetizer? Yes. Have I paid the proper taxes on every single gambling bet I've ever made? C'mon. There are hundreds of other situations in which I benefited that I'm sure could be and might be wrong. I'm not made up Jesus. All i can say is I'm a guy who for the majority of his life, tries to do what's right. You better-than-thous who think I'm not a standup guy for morally failing one poker hand out of hundreds of thousands I've played, are just ****ing losers.

I take some responsibility for what happened. I even take more responsibility now than before I made this post. I'm not 100% innocent because I think I saw something and didn't ask the dealer to stop and verify. Until a few months ago had never played a double board PLO bomb pot in my life. I would rate myself a slightly better than beginner-level Omaha player at best. At this time this occurred, I had played PLO bomb pots for roughly a few days.
I had a hardtime even understanding the times I won let alone when others won. For awhile I wanted NO PART in trying to help others because I didn't feel I had the confidence and understanding to do so. It's like I'm pretty decent at Math, but I wouldn't walk into a college Calculus class today and immediately challenge the professor on a mistake he made.

I am confident that if the hand was Holdem, I would have spotted the mistake and said something right away. I also believe if my opponent who likely had the better hand was sitting next to me or within a normal line of vision, I might have spotted it and said something. I don't know for sure, but from my personal experience that none of you guys are privy to, I think I would have.

I'll repeat once more, I don't like the fact this wasn't sorted out with certainty. I don't want to win this way. The thread's purpose was to understand if all my guilt here was for nothing as it is still the opponent's and dealer's responsibility to figure things out.

It's obvious now that at least on an online poker thread, few here are willing to admit to a mistake they have made in their career. You are all heavenly angels and I guess I'm the shithead. That's fine, but I don't believe for one second that you've never made a mistake in your poker career or that you've never accepted a dollar that wasn't yours etc.

Lastly, thank you to anyone who didn't immediately jump down my throat. I bet if you scour online forums, there's very few people who post misdeeds or things that could be seen in a negative light. I sincerely posted this thread so I could LEARN what my responsibility was and if needed, hopefully do better the next time. Previous to a few days ago, I always thought it was the opponent and the dealer's MAIN responsibility for my opponent's hand. I never knew I was REQUIRED to speak up, even though I knew saying something would probably be the right thing to do wrt to personal morals and ethics. This is world's different than purposely cheating or taking someone's wallet when they're not looking. In hindsight, I wish I would have rose to the ethical occasion in those few seconds that I sort of froze and didn't know my place in the total scheme of things. I am admitting failure as a person here, but not as purposeful cheater.

As many have said - if you're not sure what happened, or not sure if something was awarded correctly, or only realized in retrospect (after it was too late to correct it anyway) that something may not have been done right, or any number of similar variants...

then coming here to ask if there's something that you could have done is a totally cool thing to do. Come here, learn the rules, be a better poker citizen next time. Great.


If, on the other hand, you saw a pot get awarded incorrectly, and were pretty sure it was a mistake, and noticed the mistake in plenty of time to correct it, and did not do so (for any reason, but including because you were the one who benefitted)...

then coming here to ask if what you did is ethical is also fine. We would have told you it's not, and you could say "now I know better", and hopefully you would know better and act in line with that next time.

but if you instead hear that response, and decide to tell everyone else that they are wrong, and come up with a bunch of weak and faulty analogies to support your actions, and simply disregard that the rules (which are rules regardless of whether you've ever seen them before in your 20 years of playing) are quite clear and explicit about what you are supposed to do in that situation, well then you're going to hear some pushback.

--

At the end of the day, none of us were directly affected, and most of us will probably never play with you, but we appreciate the chance to debate a question of substance, and we hope that everyone, including you, learned something new. And we hope that poker will continue to grow and be a welcoming place for new players (and old players playing a new game).

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Here are some things I hope we can all agree on going forward:

1- The dealer is there to run the game, but they can make mistakes just like anyone.
2- Players should always protect their hands and their own actions, but players can make mistakes just like anyone. And cards speak (when tabled correctly).
3- All players should look out for game fairness, and if they see a problem with how a hand is being read or how a pot is being awarded, they should speak up, whether or not they were involved in the hand.
3a- Some players choose not to speak up if they are not involved. So be it, but they should know they are violating the spirit and rules of the game.
3b- Some players choose not to speak up if they are benefitting from the error. This is perhaps the most clearly unethical act we've discussed so far, but there are definitely players who will do this. These players should not, as a rule, call themselves ethical players and mean it.

4- No one can read your mind or tell you when you notice something being done wrong. Only you know that. If you didn't see it, you're obviously not responsible to correct it.
5- If you come here and tell us that you saw something, we can only believe you. If you posit a hypothetical that you saw something, we can only believe you. And we will tell you to see #3 above.

Just wanted to say thank you for this reply. Means a lot

Nice 'conclusion' to the thread. Asking for opinions about a potentially negative spot is brave for sure. Having a (very) long time member add on 5% or so more lifetime posts in one thread shows (me) that you truly are serious about the issue. There are many a thread where the OP disappears before page 1 is filled up.

I play in a Reg heavy environment where relationships are forced to evolve by default and spots like this are easier to get through IMO. And might I say that, just like getting your Aces cracked, they do get easier the more often you experience them.

Just like the old cartoon of wolf and sheepdog you need to understand the line separating sitting down to lunch with another Reg and remaining competitors at the table. I've never really experienced it myself, but I can only imagine the 'elephant in the room' when Regs travel together to casinos and end up in battles that day. Once you sit down in your chair you do have 'duties' that need to be met no matter how it affects whomever is also at the table. GL

You're totally right on that one if we talk about an honest mistake that nobody noticed except for a player not involved in the hand.

I also won't claim that most players who get awarded a pot unfairly even realize that they shouldn't have won said pot. That said, there are definitely situations where the player is 100% aware of the situation and doesn't say anything. If you know that the pot shouldn't be awarded to you and you take it anyway, that's intent to steal from the other player.

A lot of times you can easily tell by a players reaction if he was aware or not that a mistake was made. If somebody screams immediately to mind your own business without taking another look at the cards or the board, you can be fairly certain they knew.

Never understood the disjoint between this rule and not saying things like "who's got the flush" at showdown. Other than you just need a rule I suppose.

Are you supposed to correct a hand reading if the dealer announced hand wrong but only one person has shown down?

I would think yes. Cards speak so once they’re on the table, anyone announcing that specific hand isn’t doing anything wrong imo

Obv pointing out things other than that specific hand (like what beats that hand or what the other player needs in correlation to the board - like 1 specific suit or a specific card for a straight) is against the rules

In any room I've ever played, the guy making threats would be escorted out the door, banned for at least the day. If he had made aggressive moves, he would probably be banned for a week or month or forever if it was a repeat performance.



If that happened in a home game...


that's why I don't play in home games anymore.

I've had it happen twice. Once it was an obvious newbie with a trainer standing right beside her, both of them oblivious to the error. Both times I could have pocketed the money and been out the door. I kept my hands away from the money and told them to recheck everything. I can't imagine getting someone fired over a lousy $100 bill.

The practical and ethical thing is to always correct the error regardless if it saves or wuss’s a floor call or doesn’t.

As players ethics tells us to always help try to get all the chips to the correct player even if it does cause a floor call.

Yes. Because cards speak once the hand is tabled

Agree I have no fear of a violent response in a casino. If it was on the street and I was fearful of what might happen that is different

Regardless if someone would be fired the best practice is just what did. It is house money and when the drawer is short they will review tape. If they find the error which prolly will and they can id you again prolly can they have will ask for it back. You will not be welcome until you pay it back

A couple of weeks ago I was in a room I rarely visit and there was a local reg who complained to anyone and everyone for the entire two days I was there about what he described as the ####ed management of that room. I'm not sure of the details because it was a story I didn't really want to hear, no matter how many times he wanted to tell it.

Apparently he had won a high hand and the room had deducted $400 from his payout to recover an over payment at the cage. I guess he felt he had gotten away with the theft and didn't like having to pay it back.

Doesn’t surprise me at all. In fact my surprise is that he was allowed to be playing at all with the balance outstanding. Was this a card room or casino with a poker room? Was it commercial, charity or tribal? I am assuming it is in USA.

Just wondering for personal edification.

Florida card room

Thanks. Maybe I can take some more of that HH $ from him while I am there next week since he seems a jerk.

Had two instances this past week…

First a player tabled what I thought was AhKh but was really AdKh… on a 3 heart board.

I stopped the dealer for a split second from shipping the pot.

Then later that day I was playing PLO and I swore this guy tabled Q5xx on a KQJ5Q board… but he claims he didn’t have it.

After the first incident of speaking up and looking dumb I shut my mouth for the rest of the day. I asked the guy after and he was convinced he didn’t have Q5xx.

Felt bad I didn’t say anything in the second instance it was over a 1k pot and cards were tabled. I should 100% say something everytime right?

Maybe I’m just seeing things

IMO, no. It's why I can give the OP a little slack for the time he was not sure, but no slack at all for the time he was sure.

There should not have to be full agreement from every player at the table that the pot has been awarded correctly prior to the dealer moving on to the next hand. I think the only times you should hold up the game is when you are fairly sure, not necessarily 100% sure.


If I haven't been paying attention the whole hand and just caught something out of the corner of my eye that seems confusing, I'm just going to stay quietly confused. But if I have a chance to check and recheck the board vs the hands and I think there is something wrong, IMO, I have an ethical obligation to say something. I've been wrong often enough that I do not announce that the dealer is wrong or made an error. I ask a question. "Does he have a straight?" or "Why isn't that a flush?"

PLO is an interesting one .. I usually put the two I think I'm playing forward with the others behind, but then again if they're not all together then all 6 combinations of cards may not be considered.

There's also the issue so sliding/flipping your cards forward and having the Dealer muck them before a full read is complete. I try to keep two cards near my stack so they can't be mucked all together. GL

BCloud - I’ve never cheated in my life and always follow the rules.

Also BCloud - let me tell you in my OP how I cheated and didn’t follow the rules.

For me this is about integrity. Because tabled cards speak, if a dealer gets it wrong I will speak up every time. If I don't then I am a willing accomplice.

It doesn't happen all the time. I play mostly tournaments now and there are many tournaments where it doesn't come up. But when it does come up I raise the issue and mostly I am correct. When I am wrong I am usually told that there is only one dealer at the table. Which is embarrassing. But I take it like a man and move on.

The reason I do this is the golden rule. Do unto others as I would have them do unto me. Rather than don't do squat for others and watch while they undo me.

A variation on this theme is when a Dealer declares a hand incorrectly before anyone else has tabled their hand. It is especially important to correct this if the dealer has overstated the value of the hand.

Interesting tidbit: played another PLO b-pot yesterday in which I did not make to showdown. One older opponent in seat 1 got it in vs opponent in seat 6 OTT.

River cards were dealt and cards were shown. At first it was going to be a split pot. Dealer called split, opponent in seat 6 said nothing. But right before the pot was going to rewarded, someone at the table calls out, "there's a flush on bottom".

The river gave seat 6 a backdoor 8 hi flush and therefore a scoop. Pot was rougly 1500. Even though seat 1 was still up around 3k from a previous scooped bomb pot, he asks kind of menacing, "Who called the flush?"

Nobody says anything. It's obvious that whoever said it doesn't want to come forward. So I say plainly, "It doesn't matter, cards speak".

Seat 1 looks me over once and nothing more is mentioned about it.