I play 4-8 Holdem at Diamond Lil's in Renton, WA. The new management has instituted high hand promotions - $499 per half hour three days a week from noon to midnight. To cover this give away, they have raised the Poker Jackpot Rake to $3 a hand. This is in addition to the house rake of $3 a hand and the voluntary dealer tip.

This amounts to $7 a hand going off the table. If there are 30 fully raked hands per hour, this is $210 per hour leaving each 4-8 table.

If that is not bad enough, the players don't bet or raise after flop hoping to make a high hand.

With the current rake and play of the hands, I think this game should be avoided like the plague.

Your thoughts please.

Midwest just as much money comes off the table without a bunch of it regularly coming back (not that that makes it right but just saying).

It depends on how many tables are going in the room. The $3 a hand in rake isn't really coming off the table since $499 is getting put on the table every half an hour. It could be a great promotion depending on the number of tables.

At 30 hands/hour, they're taking $90/hour per table for the high hand promotion. So, if there's 5 tables that qualify for the promotion, then they're paying out $1,000/hour in promo dollars and taking in only $450. +$550 EV for the room every hour.

If there's like 30 tables that qualify for the promotion, then it's -EV.

jesse123 has the right idea - # of tables is key. If the # is about break even then it becomes another way to redistribute money from the tighter players to the looser ones. Rooms do this because the house makes more money from loose players and is probably witholding some small % from the jackpot drop as an "administrative fee".

Nobody bets or raises so I can draw for free? Doesn't sound horrible to me.

I'm not a fan of promos either, but if they really are giving all but $3 back to the players, that is probably the lowest rake in the country, so no point in complaining much. Just have to ride out the higher variance and hope to win some promos.

There's no way the promotion is EV- for the house. It's more likely they're offering the promotion at off-peak times so it's taking money from people who play at peak times.

Typical admin fees are 25-50%. Jackpot drops are not as bad as rake, especially when they're paid off in frequent, small increments like high hand (and not just BBJ). Over a thousand hours, you should hit a HHJ often enough to reach the long run.

Start with a stronger range so you're not always the one drawing ldo.

Even if all they are doing is getting more OMCs to see the flop during slow periods (thus increasing the number of raked hands), it is a win for the house. Though I would like someone to educate me on the math.

Scenario 1) Say a 1/2 game where 3 players lime, SB completes, BB checks. 10 dollars in the flop. Hand is checked down by all players.

Scenario 2) As #1, except on the flop, SB bets 2 dollars, all players call, then check down all streets after.

How much does the winning player get, and how much leaves the table, in each scenario?

Someone in the Seattle thread said they are only taking the extra drop during the hours which the new promo, which is at least fair.

If they took drops that you could never earn back, that would be shady as heck.

It certainly happens in lots of places...the most common thing is to give money back in promos like free tournaments if you earn a certain number of hours, which tourists will never be able to play. Also Aces cracked are common in slow hours, with promo drops taken for them in busy times as well.

maybe where you play

Doesn't make it not shady. I care less about the cumulative ones, more about the "goes directly to a jackpot that you literally can never qualify for at this time".

You should hate aces cracked promos the most then...or ones related to football games, etc.

Never claimed I didn't hate them.

I would hate them as well, except for they are the only times I have gotten any money from any promo funds.... so instead I just dislike them.

Maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't there a thread about a weird promo the house had to stop, because it lost significantly on it?

It's the exact opposite. If people let you draw for free, play more drawing hands. Especially small suited Ax hands that you might fold otherwise, because the nutflush has a decent chance to win the high hand for that 30 minute frame if there's not too many tables going.

7 tables running in entire room on a Saturday night. I don't see how this isn't +EV for tables.

On M,W,F, all quads with pocket pair pay $499, plus Monte Carlo straight flushes and royals. I think this is better than competing against 70-80 other players for a high hand.

All royals are at least 1k, and diamond is at least 5k