All of the responses so far are coming from the point of view that the player in question was completely unaware of the mistake. It is much more common that the player knows exactly what happened. The security guards are used to these situations - the player denies he was overpaid, denies that he knew he was overpaid, and then eventually consents to give the money back. As a security guard, when you get asked to come along on these situations, you're already thinking of the customer as a dishonest person who is trying to steal. It probably affects your attitude even though you know you're supposed to treat the thief with respect.

Couldn't they just wait until the break? Well, why? They currently have leverage over the guy. A mere threat to eject him will probably get him to return the money.

Of course it is possible that the guy was unaware that he was overpaid, but it was unlikely and rare. It is a difficult situation in which you NEED to get that money back, you're dealing with a person you consider dishonest, but he is still a customer that you want to return. You're also doing this in front of honest customers who probably, like the people in this thread, are not even thinking of the possibility that the guy knew that he got overpaid. So, they are all thinking, "how would Harrah's treat ME?" Well, don't worry, you'll never be IN this situation because you are honest.

Question does this apply if you know you owe the money. If I lend you you money but don't have you sign a note .... you don't pay me back because I have no "proof" that I lent it to you?

[QUOTE=EfromPegTown;19774092]I highly doubt blackjack dealers have to make good on shortages.


I have a policy where I don't give people money I "owe" them without some sort of proof.



This is possible. See my policy.



Then I would be forced to involve State gaming. Removing a player for an unsubstantiated debt claim is def not okay.



It would be very hard for the Casino to prove that the player "KNEW" he was overpaid. Also, saying that criminal charges would be placed in this case is laughable. Without proof of overpayment, I'm never repaying this "debt".

Gaming would not even respond because trespass is not a gaming problem and all state laws in casino states except New Jersey (you have to be causing a nusiance there) gives them the right to trespass anyone for any reason. It is your choice pay them or be 86'd from all their properties.

I would know that you lent me the money.

Now, if you slipped $20 into my wallet when I wasn't looking, then later asked for it back, without proof, you aren't getting ****.

You say that like it is a bad thing.

Fully Agree.

If I was at a table and a casino came over and told me I had been overpaid and they expected $500 to be returned to them, you can bet your ass I'm not giving them anything until proof is provided. They make mistakes far too often and is more than possible that no overpayment occurred and it was a misconception on their end.


Ban me from your casino, kick me out of the tournament, I don't care.

Not good or bad just the facts. The tapes will be shown only by court order. You will pay the money or be 86'd and escourted from the property. This is from personal experience. I was over paid at Harrahs in Tunica by $20.00 when cashing out and met by security at the poker table the next day. So if you want to keep the money you will say by by to all Harrahs properties.

Think they'd probably just take you out back and take a bat to you imo.

ive been overpaid by foxwoods at least 4 times, never been axed to pay back tho

Knowingly accepting an overpayment is stealing.

Getting axed after getting overpaid seems a little harsh.

In Atlantic City Casino's, they not only show the tapes, they request that you come to the tape room with them, to verify it. A similar thing happened to a regular player at one of the Casino's. Security asked him to go with them to the tape room, do to an over payment. He later said that he was told that he had a choice to repay the amount or they would have him arrested. I believe that they would have, if he didn't pay it back.

The most glaring comment to me was the one about not wanting him to lose it all before they could collect. He is playing in a poker tournament not a cash game. I am assuming he is not wagering more money while finishing off the blind level. What is their hurry?

zero

I agree. And if it happened that way, then he should immediately cough it up. But I doubt that if he did realize he had been overpaid $500 and kept it, that when they came to him he would grin sheepishly and say, "okay, ha ha, you got me. Here's your $500."

I think the better approach is to go up to him, say you need to speak to him, say you a review of some surveillance tape indicates he was overpaid at a bj table earleir in the day, would like to discuss it, and ask that he visit with them at next break time and in the meantime see if he can verify from his cash that this occured.

The guy goes back and if he realized it had happened he is also going to realize that they have video and so he'll come back during the break and say, "yeah, I counted and I think you are right" and pay it and there won't be a problem. If he thinks that their suspicion is wrong, he'll ask to see the tape.

At least that way the casino knows whether the guy also just made a mistake like the dealer did.

Point is, if someone is making a $500 mistake I do think it means (contrary to one poster above) that he is playing at high enough limit that you don't want tp piss the guy off. Handled correctly, you probably get your money back and for the price of a comped meal earn his continued play in the future. But embarrass him in front of of others he's playing poker with? The guy will stem on that for a long time.

Agree. They've put him in a no-win situation. Just by approaching him, they've cost him more than $500 in EV.

But a lot of people don't count their change or cash from cashing in checks.

He may not have known that he was overpaid when it occurred.

Note that comment was made by security, which gives you an idea of the IQ you need to work security at Harrahs. The whole situation also shows you the business and customer service skills of Harrahs middle management Suits.

Not to mention the obligatory KITCorporateN that Al would administer.....

What are you talking about???

Of course now that he knows they are on to him, he's leaving the $1000-10000 buy-in event at next break and heading for the exit...

They have to take him down NOW!!!!

</sarcasm>

Please learn to read things in context. You both quoted my response to someone that wasn't the OP in this case. It was to someone that openly admitted to keeping money he was over paid.

I've been 86d from Harrah's properties many times. It's no big deal, they forget all about it after awhile, although you should probably lay low for the rest of your trip. Nobody's going to arrest you for trespassing. Heck, I've been COMPED at Harrah's properties many times after being 86d, sometimes from the same property. If they happen to notice you upon your return -- assuming you have returned after a REASONABLE passage of time -- they'll either decide they don't care any more (because they still want your poker room business) or if it really bothers them, they might ask you to leave again. Mostly, if you stick to playing poker and forget about the blackjack, they are not going to 86 you for life. That just costs them more money, so it's stupid. Yes, Harrah's does stupid things sometimes, but even they are not that idiotic, at least not in my humble experience.

I'm guessing there's likely more to the story, because if the guy's a losing player at blackjack, Harrah's is gonna get the money anyway, and it isn't worth the aggravation. So I'll guess he's a winning blackjack player and they finally figured it out while reviewing the tapes of his play. The overpayment, if it occurred, just gives them an excuse to hassle a good player. My guess, anyway.

As far as overpayments in general, I was told many years ago by some casino folks that when I'm overpaid at a blackjack or craps table, and I make a big fuss about it, and I get the dealer/pit written up, I'm putting people's jobs in danger. Anybody can make a mistake, but before I make a fuss about the mistake, I should ask myself if the mistake is hurting anyone. They have plenty of chances to "double" and when multiple people say the color-up and the pay-out is correct, then at some point, you have to believe that maybe they're right and you're wrong. So if I think I'm getting overpaid, there's no reason to speak up. If I think I'm getting underpaid, I'll speak up and they can fix it or explain it to me how I'm confused. It's pretty much plus-EV to do it that way, for all concerned.

I've never had anyone come back the next day and ask for the money back. I suppose that if they did, if they were unwilling to show evidence, then at that point, I would be happy to leave and let them contact me in future, if they wish to "chase," through their attorney, unless I was certain that they were correct. I had one incident where I was overpaid and they came back for the money, but it was about 15 minutes later, which is perfectly OK. It was at the Tropicana in Las Vegas, where the dealer came around and paid me $300 on a push (also another guy or maybe a couple other guys also got paid some like amount on his push). We all looked around at each other and just shook our heads, not knowing what to say but silently agreeing that there's no point in screwing this up for everybody just to be self-righteous. I'm not looking to get the dealer written up, nor am I looking to steal something, so I decide the best move is to keep playing and if surveillance catches on, in a few minutes, they'll get the phone call. That's what happened. The pit guy says, "Um, we think you got overpaid $300 on that hand," and I said, "Yeah, I was kind of wondering about that.." and I gave back the chips and we're square.

It is not true that they can't show you the video surveillance in Vegas. It's true that they tell people that. A friend's lawyer had a good time with that one. When the casino claimed to have lost the tape somehow, then he said, "Oh, so you stipulate that you have no defense?" (The casino was the defendant, it was a civil case.) The casino finally produced the video but still lost their case, since the video made it clear who was telling the truth, and it wasn't the casino's head of security.

I'm not saying I'd go to court over $500 but I'm not handing over $500 on some head of security's say-so either. It is a civil dispute at this point, and the casino employee poster who claims you'll be arrested and tossed in jail for several hours before the police realize you can't be charged with a crime is kind of, sort of making stuff up. The police don't arrest you for stuff like that. In fact, they get real annoyed when people -- and "head of security" aka not real police officers -- call them out for matters that the security person should know good and well is a civil matter.

It is not a crime to keep money that someone has handed to you. Nope, sorry, it just ain't. It may be a matter of civil dispute but it is not a crime. You may not like it that a man on this thread openly admitted keeping money that he was overpaid, but he didn't commit a crime. Nobody came back and made it right all the times he didn't notice that he was UNDERpaid, and I can guarantee that banks and casinos make just as many mistakes in their favor as in your favor. But you don't have surveillance cameras or a cage supervisor to do a "double," if you make a mistake, you'll never even notice it, except for that nagging feeling of, Hmm, what happened to that other purple chip I thought I had? Was my pocket picked? Or what?

If you return money when you're overpaid but don't get money back when you're underpaid, you're pretty much playing a negative expectation game in this life. It probably shouldn't take advanced calculus to figure out why.

That said, if you're CERTAIN you owe the money, well, give it back, it's a no-brainer.

TBH, the post is pretty one sided and does not describe the event the player was in. Just he was at table 68.

If he busted out before the break, where would they find him?

We have no idea what day this happened, just that it was posted a yesterday. I couldn't find it on poker news to see if there was more to the story.

Anyone else able to locate it?

OP, did you save a link?

The debate over whether its criminal is not what I'm talking about. And I don't think its self-righteous to point out the error and stop it from happening or pay it back right away, either. I think its a moral obligation not to take something, even if handed to you, when you know its not yours.

And, I have to say it does not add up for you to say you and these three others took down a few hundred each paid out mistakenly on a push, but then also say you don't want to get someone in trouble.

Seems to me that saying something at that moment and preventing the mistake is going to do a lot more for the dealrer's job security than watching as he accidentally doles out $1200.

maybe the dealer will come visit you in the hospital after the other players meet up with you in the parking lot

This is the only bad part of the whole exchange IMO; it's a pretty smartass comeback and also sort of violates the courtesy/custom/rule that casino employees are never supposed to discuss losing or even use the word "lose."

So...

"No, I'd rather you wait until I WIN this tournament but thanks for the vote of confidence, Bubba."

Not sure if this is a beat or a brag.