I was hoping there was a catch all thread for this type of question, but I couldn't find one, so here we go. These two happened in the last week last week and I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Mississippi straddle at 2/5. So button is at $10. SB makes it 20, but no one seems to notice. BB puts in $10, 2 more people call the $10, I see these limpers and make it $55. Then everyone realizes that SB made it 20. Is my raise to $55 binding or should it go back to BB and then the rest of us to decide if we want to call the $20? UTG is a huge nit and I never would have raised if I had known he made it 20. What's the call here?

Situation 2: We get all in preflop, big pot, AKs vs JJ, agree to run it twice. The dealer runs out a full board (AK wins), and then for some reason the dealer somehow thinks that it was all in on that flop, and then only runs out the turn and river for the second board. What do you do from there??

yes the dealers here aren't the best

1) The players who have called only $10 are liable for $20, so they should be forced to keep at least $10 in the pot (or the full $20, depending on the house rules), and your raise to $55 stands. Pretty straightforward.

2) If he put out only turn and river for the second board, then it should be easy to reconstruct the correct board: assuming it went burn turn burn river, just take the second burn and add it to the board to get to get the correct flop, then continue normally with a turn and river, and a burn before each.

1). Being not so familiar with live poker rules I was thinking my raise wouldn't stand because no one called out the $10 raise. Guess I was wrong, thanks. SB obviously had really strong hand and repopped, and I was slightly annoyed at the way it went down. Sorry if that was a super standard rules question.

2). Ok, now i know this sounds a little sillly, but what if the dealer, thinking the hand was over, somehow mixed the burn cards on the 2nd board with the rest of deck? Would you just put the turn and river cards as the first two cards of the flop and then shuffle the rest back in for the last card on the flop, then burn and turn for the turn and river?

1. I'm ruling the SB failed to protect is action and that he's only called the 10. It's a player responsibility to protect his action. At least 3 people have acted after him (probably more if OP is leaving out people folding).

Either way, your raise 100% stands. This is just a question of if the limpers are bound to put the extra 10 in or not.

2. What joel said. If obviously fixable, then fix it.

2a. If the dealer screwed up that bad. Just reshuffle the stub and bring a whole new board.

No.

I'd ensure the two known cards take their rightful place in the new board (either as burn cards, or board cards) and then the stub + burn cards are reshuffled to deal out the missing burn and board cards in sequence.

In your example;
He deals out "Burn Turn Burn River" instead of "Burn Flop1 Flop2 Flop3 Burn Turn Burn River" then the turn and river dealt become the Flop1 and Flop3 on the new board. The stub and burns are shuffled and the dealer deals "Burn Flop2 Burn Turn Burn River" and that - plus the already dealt Flop1 and Flop3, become the new board.

HOWEVER

If the burn cards and the folded cards are mixed together with the stub for some reason, then get yourself a flux capacitor and try and go back in time to pre-kick the dealer in the nuts.

s Well, that is what I was saying basically, I was thinking flop1 and flop3 (the turn and river) should be on the flop... and then go from there...

well yes, the dealer should get kicked in the nuts

No. This might make some sense if we are told that the SB threw out a single oversized chip and now claims to have said "raise" but no one else claims to have heard it.

But the story as told he raised to $20 the next players called by releasing chips into the pot and must make their calls good.

RROP

Everyone had the chance to know SB raised and to correct the 'undercalls'.
Yes, your raise to $55 is binding.
Yes, the others need to correct their bets to $20.
I'm just a 1/2 non-missippi straddling fool, but I would think that $55 just bloats the pot and wasn't really going to thin the field (BTN, SB, BB, Limper1, Limper2, you).
$55 lesson learned (unless it got worse).



Fix as mentioned. If the stub has been fouled, do the best you can.


Maybe the players need to be more vigilant in nonstandard spots (Mississippi Straddle, Running it Twice)?

Maybe the management needs to do a better job of instructing the dealers?

This really depends on the room IMO. The $10 folks might get the option of folding or calling the 'extra' $10 and some rooms even waffle and let them take their $10 back. The raise stands IMO, but of course you could argue that you would've made it a different amount.

Significant action is considered 2 calls or 1 raise and we have that here so the raise needs to stand based on what I've run into.


Hopefully the dealer can reconstruct the correct 2nd board. If not, then I am all for a reshuffle of all 'non mucked' cards (including the 2 on the board) and running another board. I don't think it's fair to reintroduce cards that were mucked by other players or the dealer accidentally. GL

So all you have to do to undo a raise is to convince two more players to just put out calling chips after someone clearly raised?

While I wouldnt have an issue with the options already described, i think there is another way to approach it. Use the gross misunderstanding rule. It gives the example in RROP of someone clearly putting out the old call amount, not realizing the bet had been raised. And while an extra $10 may not seem like a gross misunderstanding, RROP suggests using the 80% of raise amount cutoff. That is if the player put out at least 80% of the correct amount, then he cant claim gross misunderstanding

But in this case they only put out 50%, clearly indicating they intended to call the earlier amou t. So let everybody pull their bets back except for the SB who raised to 20, and take it from there, including the OP who reraised. IOW just go back to the spot where the SB raised and start over.

IMO that actually gives the result closest to the way it would have played out had the dealer announced the raise in the first place. So use a combo of gross misunderstanding and rule 1 for fairness instead of forcing 3-4 people to make calls or raises they may not have made if not for the error.

This to me is a bad approach and not consistent with the gross misunderstanding rule which provides:

You would now let the players who called the bet get out of the AFTER THEY FIND OUT THAT A PLAYER BEHIND THEM IS GOING TO RAISE. That is the damage that is referred to in the rule. If you want to let the raiser reevaluate the amount fo his raise .... that is one thing. But letting the previous callers get out of the action is not fair.

I recognize that aspect of it, but I think the damage is making people call a raise they may not have been planning to. And likewise, the OP stated that he thought he ws the first raiser, and never would have three bet the guy if he knew he had raised. So IMO those damages are equally or more valid than the other concern.

OP thought he was the first raiser, so what? He wasn't and it was clear. People need to pay attention. I'm all for not screwing people with the rules, but this is too far.

As to the callers ..... if they suffer the consequences of not paying attention ... I can live with that. The rule doesn't speak to that damage. the rule is speaking to the damage caused by not binding them to their action.

Yea, maybe, maybe not. I had ATs and didn't really mind if everyone came along with their garbage hands.



Yeaaa, overall the main dealers are pretty good, but sometimes they rotate in some newer dealers which is when things sometimes get a little hairy.

I like Browsers ruling! Anyway, my bet stood and the people that called the $10 had their option to fold and lose their $10 to the pot, or call the $20, knowing that I was raising to $55 and SB still had his option. Of course they still called the $20 being the ******s that they are. SB reraised to 200, everyone grumbled and mucked, he showed queens, and that was that.

Anyway, yea it was my fault for not paying enough attention, but most people when they see a whole bunch of calls in front of them are going to assume that everyone has limped and act accordingly.

Fair enough. Was looking for the RRoP but couldn't find it.

Hate to be *This guy*, but what if OP just calls and action gets all the way around the table before anybody points out that the SB has raised? Is everybody still held to a call of $20, or do you back the action up since there was no raise?

I see the point you're trying to make.

But if I'm the SB, and I see people putting out the wrong amount. Should I really just be allowed to keep quiet and watch the entire table act on the wrong amount? I feel like a line should be drawn somewhere.

IMO - this isn't entirely different than if the SB got skipped. He has an obligation to speak up and stop people from acting out of turn.

I don't think a raise is the issue. I think the issue is any action subsequent.

rather than use the gross misunderstanding rule I think the call behind a raise rule I cited in my first post is more on point. And that rule specifically refers to any action.

even folds here are potnetially an issue. A guy calls hoping to see a bunch of limps ... but everyone folds and this guy now wants to take back his call because he has a hand which wants to see a lot limpers.

1- SB's raise to 20 stands. Everyone that called 10 will owe 10 more and your raise also stands. Some rooms will let them fold and lose the 10 though.

2- the first reply got this correct. Think it was Joel.