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12-18-2009 , 05:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Negreanu
I've played with PH before when he asks for insurance and the process often takes 15 minutes+. When Ivey turned him down, and no one else gave him insurance, I said "Let's go." There is no other player that EVER gets involved in insurance. Not one.

As for the difference between me and him in NL cash games, I have, and will always publicly admit those guys are leagues above me in terms of skill. As for mixed games, that's a completely different story entirely. I've never had a losing year in mixed games.

PH calls people idiots. Worse, they are complete strangers to him. Do you ever see me stick it to Durr, or Viffer, of Patrik in the game? No, they don't behave like PH does. When I see him talk down to strangers I lose respect for him. You can needle people you know, but you just don't say the things he says to strangers. If he calls me names I can laugh it off and poke back, but you just have to treat strangers with a little more respect than that, and he refuses to do that, whether it's "Idiots from Northern Europe," or him throwing his finger in a guys face and yelling, "YOU ARE AN IDIOT!" There is no excuse for that. None whatsoever.

Aside from all that, there is financial motivation behind how I treat PH in a cash game. The more you challenge his ego, the more willing he'll be to gamble. Just listen to him, "You can book me in this game everyday."

Good natured needling is all good in my book, but when PH talks down to Durrr the first time they played, and when he repeatedly treats the "average Joe" like they aren't worthy, that annoys me and I turn up my needle to new levels with him. I'm not apologizing for that and don't plan on giving him a break the next time we play.
PLEASE always keep insulting Hellmuth, laughing at him and booking him. You're the only player at the table being honest!
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12-18-2009 , 05:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stass13
DN, like i said earlier i can understand y u may have the needle out on the guy. For excatly what your stating. But what im wondering is, hes really done none of that here. The needle should of maybe happened when those infractions occured, and behind camera. because u guys are both established to such high status.

As far as the insurance goes, sure i think its annoying that it takes awhile to go. But PA offers him a deal first and it goes from there. In a 100k pot he should be able to take the time and deal with that. After the pot is over and deal done. You or anyone at the table should be able to, and its your right to say, 'hey i think this takes to long i object to that'

But i think losing a 100k pot he shouldnt have to hear it until hes done. Hes got every right, just as anyone at the table. he could now interject on anyone running it twice or whatever.

just saying man, it kinda bothered me a bit. His past actions are 100% wrong. Just thought maybe not the right time here, and maybe he hadn't made a mistake on this show. And you were packing a machine gun of needles. Also i think the guy has stated over and over last year or two that hes really working hard on acting better, and claims it to be genuine. that being said, he's 100% wrong in the idiot thing, and nothern europe crap. Y the stranger dont stick up for themselves i dont know.

p.s If u watched it, do u see it differently then from what u remeber.

P.p.s. Im a nobody so feel free to crush me at will. I think i can play (i know i can play) but last two months getting crushed. its kinda like i cant beat any cash game

Here is the thing, PH has been saying he's been working on his behavior for 10+ years now. I used to take him aside and explain to him what he was doing and how he was making people feel. A story from the bike from maybe 10 years ago:

Roberto Flood, a sweet man in his late 40's is in a stud pot and PH is in the hand as well. Roberto makes a bad bet on 6th street and it ends up costing PH the pot. PH just goes ballistic on Roberto and is uber mean to him. Roberto realizes that he made a mistake, but if you looked at his face, it looked like he wanted to cry from embarrassment. He called out Roberto in front of the whole room for his mistake, and made Roberto, like the sweetest man you'll ever meet, feel like the biggest idiot in the world.

I was fuming. On the break I took PH aside and told him he was being a complete jerk. That's not the first time something like that's happened, and it won't be the last. It's totally uncool, and what he did to Christian Dragomir is equally inappropriate.

Whether PH did anything wrong on this episode, aside from the weird comment about me being ugly, why does ANYONE think he deserves a free pass from ridicule? Ever hear the saying, "If you dish it out, you better be able to take it?"

You will never, not in a million years, ever hear me pick on someone who doesn't dish it out. I'd never do something like that. If I pick on anyone, or bully anyone, I choose to pick on bullies.
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12-18-2009 , 05:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Negreanu
I've played with PH before when he asks for insurance and the process often takes 15 minutes+. When Ivey turned him down, and no one else gave him insurance, I said "Let's go." There is no other player that EVER gets involved in insurance. Not one.

As for the difference between me and him in NL cash games, I have, and will always publicly admit those guys are leagues above me in terms of skill. As for mixed games, that's a completely different story entirely. I've never had a losing year in mixed games.

PH calls people idiots. Worse, they are complete strangers to him. Do you ever see me stick it to Durr, or Viffer, of Patrik in the game? No, they don't behave like PH does. When I see him talk down to strangers I lose respect for him. You can needle people you know, but you just don't say the things he says to strangers. If he calls me names I can laugh it off and poke back, but you just have to treat strangers with a little more respect than that, and he refuses to do that, whether it's "Idiots from Northern Europe," or him throwing his finger in a guys face and yelling, "YOU ARE AN IDIOT!" There is no excuse for that. None whatsoever.

Aside from all that, there is financial motivation behind how I treat PH in a cash game. The more you challenge his ego, the more willing he'll be to gamble. Just listen to him, "You can book me in this game everyday."

Good natured needling is all good in my book, but when PH talks down to Durrr the first time they played, and when he repeatedly treats the "average Joe" like they aren't worthy, that annoys me and I turn up my needle to new levels with him. I'm not apologizing for that and don't plan on giving him a break the next time we play.
Good post.

I don't think it's even possible to needle PH too much. Keep up the good work.
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12-18-2009 , 05:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Negreanu
Here is the thing, PH has been saying he's been working on his behavior for 10+ years now. I used to take him aside and explain to him what he was doing and how he was making people feel. A story from the bike from maybe 10 years ago:

Roberto Flood, a sweet man in his late 40's is in a stud pot and PH is in the hand as well. Roberto makes a bad bet on 6th street and it ends up costing PH the pot. PH just goes ballistic on Roberto and is uber mean to him. Roberto realizes that he made a mistake, but if you looked at his face, it looked like he wanted to cry from embarrassment. He called out Roberto in front of the whole room for his mistake, and made Roberto, like the sweetest man you'll ever meet, feel like the biggest idiot in the world.

I was fuming. On the break I took PH aside and told him he was being a complete jerk. That's not the first time something like that's happened, and it won't be the last. It's totally uncool, and what he did to Christian Dragomir is equally inappropriate.

Whether PH did anything wrong on this episode, aside from the weird comment about me being ugly, why does ANYONE think he deserves a free pass from ridicule? Ever hear the saying, "If you dish it out, you better be able to take it?"

You will never, not in a million years, ever hear me pick on someone who doesn't dish it out. I'd never do something like that. If I pick on anyone, or bully anyone, I choose to pick on bullies.
What bothers me even more than this is the fact that Phill Hellmuth isn't smart or superior AT ALL.

I don't mind Einstein having some justified arrogance against me when i try to talk about physics but... you get the point.

And I even forget he started berating the dealer. Ffs somebody punch that fool in the face
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12-18-2009 , 06:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SizzlerFTW
What bothers me even more than this is the fact that Phill Hellmuth isn't smart or superior AT ALL.

I don't mind Einstein having some justified arrogance against me when i try to talk about physics but... you get the point.

And I even forget he started berating the dealer. Ffs somebody punch that fool in the face
Daniel must be proud to have the biggest troll on this board praising him.,

DANIEL ......... the poker world does not need you to be the hero and save all us average joe's , please dont spin this to you doing everyone a favour .

Instead of bashing the so called fish that is hellmuth , maybe you should improve your cash game where when you criticize hellmuth your critisicm has some kind of merit.

I was a fan of yours and so was my wife but these last 2 weeks we both have seen something in you that is very ugly , This is not the same person who was freindly and likable that we have followed for years . You have mentioned his actions cause you to do these yet you are reaching to his level and looking as bad as he does in his worse times . 2 douchebags dont make a right

I hope you go back to your roots , cause we miss the person we used to praise as someone who made us proud to be a poker player and even more a proud canadian represantitive.
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12-18-2009 , 07:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jojoh07
Daniel must be proud to have the biggest troll on this board praising him.,

DANIEL ......... the poker world does not need you to be the hero and save all us average joe's , please dont spin this to you doing everyone a favour .

Instead of bashing the so called fish that is hellmuth , maybe you should improve your cash game where when you criticize hellmuth your critisicm has some kind of merit.

I was a fan of yours and so was my wife but these last 2 weeks we both have seen something in you that is very ugly , This is not the same person who was freindly and likable that we have followed for years . You have mentioned his actions cause you to do these yet you are reaching to his level and looking as bad as he does in his worse times . 2 douchebags dont make a right

I hope you go back to your roots , cause we miss the person we used to praise as someone who made us proud to be a poker player and even more a proud canadian represantitive.

I respect your opinion and hear where you are coming from. I have worked on my own game and felt like I did well against the tough competition. We should make it clear once again, though, that I was never claiming to be the best player in that game. I never made the comparison of me vs PH. I made the comparison of PH vs. that lineup and put my money where my mouth is.

I'll always be nice to strangers. I'll always be nice to most everyone. I'm just not going to give PH a pass. He doesn't deserve one.

By no means do I think I'm doing the poker world a favor, I just don't see any real solid reason why I shouldn't needle PH when the opportunity presents itself.

You have every right to judge me for that, and if you don't like what you see, I can respect that completely. We'll just have to agree to disagree in terms of what is suitable behavior with a guy like PH.
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12-18-2009 , 07:42 PM
I think Daniel's got several perfectly good reasons to needle PH. I'm surprised this has caused so much controversy... with so much money changing hands, and poker being such a serious game, why are people getting so worked up about a little bit of needling? At least DN hasn't abused total strangers at the tables before.
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12-18-2009 , 07:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Negreanu
I respect your opinion and hear where you are coming from. I have worked on my own game and felt like I did well against the tough competition. We should make it clear once again, though, that I was never claiming to be the best player in that game. I never made the comparison of me vs PH. I made the comparison of PH vs. that lineup and put my money where my mouth is.

I'll always be nice to strangers. I'll always be nice to most everyone. I'm just not going to give PH a pass. He doesn't deserve one.

By no means do I think I'm doing the poker world a favor, I just don't see any real solid reason why I shouldn't needle PH when the opportunity presents itself.

You have every right to judge me for that, and if you don't like what you see, I can respect that completely. We'll just have to agree to disagree in terms of what is suitable behavior with a guy like PH.
Thank you , very respectful and well said .Good luck Daniel.
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12-18-2009 , 08:03 PM
On the one hand, DN really comes off looking bad when he's going at it with Hellmuth right out of the gate. It's not Zeidman level bad, but it's not something to be proud of. Unfortunately, there is really no good way to go after pieces of **** like Hellmuth without coming off as one yourself.

On the other hand, tilted Hellmuth makes for good TV, and he really does tilt from the abuse. In both episodes where someone went after him, he eventually went off the deep end and made highly amusing plays.
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12-18-2009 , 08:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauha
Good post.

I don't think it's even possible to needle PH too much. Keep up the good work.
+1
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12-18-2009 , 08:19 PM
Anything that gives you a tiny edge at the table should be used, unless it is inappropriate. This by DN was not inappropriate at all.

The needling has earnt DN ~150k from Hellmuth (I guess the top set v straight was just a cooler and needling didn't affect that, but the min re raise to 30k certainly).

Its like sledging in cricket. It makes the game more interesting, creates more rivalry and more fun. As long as it doesn't go over the top.

Nothing more boring and gay then the people who always say "nice hand, sir" and chit like that. They all sound like churchies.
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12-18-2009 , 08:21 PM
dn is horrific. His online results speak for themselves.
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12-18-2009 , 08:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esoterotic
dn is horrific. His online results speak for themselves.
Winningest live tournament player of all time.
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12-18-2009 , 08:54 PM
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12-18-2009 , 09:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Negreanu
I respect your opinion and hear where you are coming from. I have worked on my own game and felt like I did well against the tough competition. We should make it clear once again, though, that I was never claiming to be the best player in that game. I never made the comparison of me vs PH. I made the comparison of PH vs. that lineup and put my money where my mouth is.

I'll always be nice to strangers. I'll always be nice to most everyone. I'm just not going to give PH a pass. He doesn't deserve one.

By no means do I think I'm doing the poker world a favor, I just don't see any real solid reason why I shouldn't needle PH when the opportunity presents itself.

You have every right to judge me for that, and if you don't like what you see, I can respect that completely. We'll just have to agree to disagree in terms of what is suitable behavior with a guy like PH.
Daniel, I'm trying to get your perspective on this. I guess if I had the history with PH's shenanigans like you have over these years, maybe I would feel compelled to give it to him whenever I can. I can't walk a mile in your shoes, so I won't give you any more grief.

After all this is a guy you have had to work with, not regularly, but often enough, and over many years. We have all worked with fools, and I know it just gets to be too much to deal with at times. You have got to let it out sometimes. Just don't be a Zeidman.
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12-18-2009 , 09:15 PM
i would agree that DN's interactions with PH in the pad games these last two weeks haven't shown him in the best light. I think that PH's abusive outbursts do deserve calling out and i think that the insurance bs is as annoying as hell and i don't mind trying to chivvy that along much, but i think the general booking chitchat and so on is like a mud fight - no matter who wins both sides get a bit dirty in the exchanges.

My personal preferred option in the face of PH's blather and self promotion would be to just ignore it. Yeah when he starts abusing people he needs to be put in his place, and it's unacceptable, but the whole "imma gonna trap yous" crap is unworthy of even acknowledgement - just talk amongst yourselves.

I am generally a fan of DN's, and not of PH's in case it was not plainly obvious, if only because of the pair's differnet public presentation, so make of it what you will
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12-18-2009 , 09:32 PM
Daniel challenge PH to put his money where his mouth was and have Daniel book him.

Right there, Daniel decided to try and tilt him as much as possible.

Then PH called Daniel ugly, like PH is a supermodel, check the mole, hope its cancerous.

Any chance now Daniel will get the needle out.
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12-18-2009 , 10:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Negreanu
when he repeatedly treats the "average Joe" like they aren't worthy,
that annoys me and I turn up my needle to new levels with him.
I'm not apologizing for that and don't plan on giving him a break the next time we play.
A big attaboy to you Daniel.

PH deserves anything that get dished out to him.
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12-18-2009 , 10:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stass13
sure but thats not it. he wasn't saying to Ivey. Forget insurance lets go...

I want to see the next card. And thats just one example. I think he's got it out for him. And he planned on kinda going after him. PH hasn't done much wrong on this weeks show. If anything durrrr can and will speak up for himself. But hes a professional and keeps quiet.

Durrr is really the only one that can say eh phil your out of line... or keep challenging him hu or which ever.

DN just sat down and had already decided im needling this prick all day.

I can see what PH has done in the past nad all the bs. But that should be handled then. Just makes DN look kinda low the way he's been doing it on this show and the recent monhts. imo.

I could be wrong. Just the feeling i got.

thats how i saw it also. made him look like a total jackass.
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12-18-2009 , 10:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Negreanu
Here is the thing, PH has been saying he's been working on his behavior for 10+ years now. I used to take him aside and explain to him what he was doing and how he was making people feel. A story from the bike from maybe 10 years ago:

Roberto Flood, a sweet man in his late 40's is in a stud pot and PH is in the hand as well. Roberto makes a bad bet on 6th street and it ends up costing PH the pot. PH just goes ballistic on Roberto and is uber mean to him. Roberto realizes that he made a mistake, but if you looked at his face, it looked like he wanted to cry from embarrassment. He called out Roberto in front of the whole room for his mistake, and made Roberto, like the sweetest man you'll ever meet, feel like the biggest idiot in the world.

I was fuming. On the break I took PH aside and told him he was being a complete jerk. That's not the first time something like that's happened, and it won't be the last. It's totally uncool, and what he did to Christian Dragomir is equally inappropriate.

Whether PH did anything wrong on this episode, aside from the weird comment about me being ugly, why does ANYONE think he deserves a free pass from ridicule? Ever hear the saying, "If you dish it out, you better be able to take it?"

You will never, not in a million years, ever hear me pick on someone who doesn't dish it out. I'd never do something like that. If I pick on anyone, or bully anyone, I choose to pick on bullies.
thats how kids act. so by him being a dickhead it gives you a right to be a dickhead too? guess what you're both dickheads now. i think you're one of the good guys in poker. dont let PH drag u down.
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12-18-2009 , 11:50 PM
A little off topic, but did anyone find it funny that Phil Hellmuth had to ask how many outs he had with top set vs Ivey's straight? This guy calls himself the best nlhe player in the world, at the peak of his powers, and he doesn't know how many outs a set has against a straight?
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12-18-2009 , 11:59 PM
LIFE NITS ITT.

DN is always pretty upbeat and seems cool enough. So he's not in the same league as Dwan/Antonius/Ivey either, who gives a ****.

PH is a whiny whiny biatch who sucks at poker. And even if he didn't suck quite as much as he does it's kind of irrelevent IMO coz his attitude would more than make up for the extra deserved disdain people would feel for him, its kinda late so I'm not sure if that sentence makes sense but who cares.

Damn, WHO CARES that DN needles PH a bit, he deserves it and I can't believe its a discussion worthy of 7 pages. I admit I haven't read the OP or any of the thread properly coz again it's late but I'm pretty sure that's what this threads about so yeah theres my 2cents. Bunch of life nit haters itt.
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12-19-2009 , 12:14 AM
There's been a few references to Cory Zeidman's interaction with Phil Hellmuth, I thought I'd post his response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Zeidman
<snip discussion of the Jennifer Harman hand>

As far as some of the other topics and comments concerning table talk and the PAD appearance, you all should be aware that there was some interaction between Helmuth and myself before the taping began, or possibly was taped and then editing didnt include it since it was before the game actually began. I didnt care for the condescending manor in which he was talking to me and F..k him and anybody else who doesnt care for the way I handled it. Helmuth berates, insults, and intimidates individuals on national t.v. all the time and then has the nerve to complain, whine, and talk about class when the shoe is on the other foot. Those of you who defend him in this spot and choose to berate me, I'll just try and not lose sleep over it. You people are a joke, but were all entitled to our opinions and I can handle it. I wont cry for help like Helmuth. I talk at the poker table plenty. Yes, i believe its part of the game as long as its within the rules. Part of my invite on PAD im sure has to do with my mouth and the fact that I definitely " Speak My Mind". I guess that some of my critics would prefer that phoney bulls..t where everybody kisses each others ass on t.v. while they really want to crush each other. Thats not me.
Some of you on this thread and the Speak your mind thread were perceptive enough to pick up on the fact that there was some instigating taking place, not that it was entirely necessary. Im submitting a story that will be in Bluff Mag. in the near future that will address this point as well. I was approached by 2 plus 2 about a podcast visit but we still havent done it but would be fine with doing one and addressing candidly all the points and questions. CZ
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12-19-2009 , 12:23 AM
i think it's fair for dn to have drawn the line at a point after enough terrible behavior and is now letting him have it. i mean, ph's behavior on tv had led to yrs of abuse towards dealers and weaker players by 1/2 "pros"

most of my friends ideas on poker is a dbag in sunglasses screaming at a guy for not only having AA/KK
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12-19-2009 , 12:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sba9630
There's been a few references to Cory Zeidman's interaction with Phil Hellmuth, I thought I'd post his response:
God zeidman was a douchebag , I pray he dont show up in this thread , but Im guessing he will , guy googles himself daily.
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