if no one else has cards i think you can safely muck....

Wow..how far 2p2 has fallen.


FWIW, OP tabled his hand and got screwed. Bottom line. People drive home the point daily around here to protect your hand and TABLE it...OP did. Ridiculous that people are piling on you, Joe. Sick.


And not that he cares, but OP is a 10/20NL pro here in Vegas. And it's really sad that the "B" is the only game in town above 5/10nl. *sigh*

I for one never doubted he is a pro player, I never doubted that he believes what he described occurred, I somewhat doubt that he saw the security tape at the poker desk and I am 100% sure he is funny as hell calling RR a troll. It appears he only posted this for sympathy and not getting a shoulder to cry on became defensive. I say grow up, take your business elsewhere or continue to play at the B, none of us here care either way, nor will anyone decide to not play at the B because of your post. Personally I don't like playing there but I don't post every-time I feel they made a poor ruling either so I normally play elsewhere when I am in town. Insulting solid intelligent posters proves only that you are immature, not that you play poker well nor that you deserve any recompense.

Jimbo

Aren't we tempermental.....

let me get this straight, if someone agrees with you, they are knights in shinning armor and if someone disagrees with you they are trolls....ok I get it.

You might want to go back and read your own posts, they have a haughty condescending tone that makes me think that its highly possible that all efforts were taken to confirm your claims and that when it still didn't come out the way you wanted, you decided to take out your frustration on everyone around you....still don't understand how not tipping dealers who in no way were involved is a normal reaction to this type of situation...sounds to me like you are just a frustrated, angry, grinder who wants everyone to "feel his pain".

Wake up and smell the roses....life is tough, bad things happen, sometimes things work out and sometimes they don't, some days you're the windshield and somedays you're the bug....and always hold onto your hand until you are pushed the pot.

Woof

First off...great post Jimbo....

Second, I was in a poker room in AC when someone hit the BBJ (a big one), after all the excitement was over and everyone got paid, etc...the head table games manager came down to congratulate the "winners" and he had a "digital printout" from the survellience camera...it was so clear and readable that you could see all the cards, identify them clearly as to suit, rank, type of face card etc...

This was not a "new" casino, but at least 25 years old, I too can not believe that a) OP saw surviellence footage at the poker desk and b) that it would be unable to determine the cards...

I know I am coming late to the discussion here, but I did want to add my two cents.

The Bellagio could care less.

My buddy got picked in the pocket right at the 30-60 limit box for about 5k and they did not give a ****...and he is a regular.

He asked security and Sugernuts (Sugernuts is good guy actually) to look at the tape, and they could have cared less.

FU BELLAGIO.

When the jackpot hits, they stop everything and surveillance takes a picture of the table and the cards. TO get a good shot when they haven't zoomed in on the table is much more difficult.

QFT

I would seriously have bashed the dirtbag that stole the pot from you.

For real.

Thoughts....

-Interestingly played hand with the check/call on the first two streets imo. I probably play it way differently, but I'm interested in your analysis of it if you wouldn't mind.

-What happened absolutely sucks and you have a right to be pissed. I have no clue why others at the table wouldn't vouch for your hand. Its also very very strange that they claim to be able to make out the board but not your hand on the tape- you saw the tape, what did you think?

-Despite all of that, I think it was a simple dealer mistake and the floor really couldn't do much else. I'm not saying it doesn't suck, but I do think you sometimes go overboard on this "me against the world" philosophy. I don't think its a big conspiracy to help out the regular donator; Its probably just a mistake.

-Your "plan" to get them back is pretty silly. For one, you're punishing innocent dealers for one dealer's mistake the the floor's/management's mistake. Two, you're still helping out the Bellagio by playing there. Third, it just makes you look bad to many who won't understand why you're not tipping even on big pots. Fourth, if you are correct and maybe the dealer/floor were trying to help out a donator because hes better for the game, then this is the worst possible way to ensure that it doesn't happen again. The best way you could "get the Bellagio back" would be to try to get a regular $10/20 going at the Wynn every day, which would hurt Bellagio's business a lot. You know that I'd be all for getting that started.

-LOL@ all of the "well you should've protected your cards better" posts. Turning your hand face up and letting the dealer muck the losing hand and put the winning hand face up in the center of the table is completely standard- the dealer is supposed to do this, so if you try to hold on to your cards right by you then the dealer should ask for them so that he can place them in the middle of the table for everyone to see(including cameras), the dealer then is supposed to push forward the board cards that you are playing along with your hand to make a 5 card hand, AND THEN push you the pot.

-Bellagio still sucks and I hate that people(including myself) are forced to play there because its often the only $10/20+ game in town. For the love of God, lets change this people.

This is talking about during the hand. After showdown, you are not supposed to hold on to your hand, as its the dealers job to do what I said above.


Agreed 100% here. What did the dealer claim you had?


Joe, while I agree with you almost 100% here, I do agree that your posts do come across this way.

Assani you should start a new thread just on this alone!

For the life of me I can not understand why the Wynn does not consistently get all of the HSNL games in LV.

OP, sorry bro, tough times. You should do like I do, play at the Wynn regardless. Talk more players into starting the game at the Wynn. When it won't start play 5/10 until the cows come home. If enough regulars do this, 10/20 will be a standard instead of a weekend highlight.

This is where you are just wrong. The correct procedure is to muck the losing hands, push the pot to the single remaining hand and then (and only then) move the winning hand from in front of the winning player.

Agreed. I can not understand why the "B" is more popular than the Wynn. The Wynn treats us players SO much better and it's a more comfortable room. Not to mention very competent dealers/floors who will go out of their way to accomodate us.


It's really a shame. Count me in on helping w/ that Percula.

10/20 NL is at the Bellagio for the same dumb reason Commerce is the most popular cardroom in LA- location, location, location. You can get all the regular pros in town to start playing at Wynn but that does not a good game make. Bellagio is the center of the action, so the stupid money prefers Bellagio, and without the stupid money you don't have a game.

DN had an interesting story about this a while back...When he was coming up, there were 2 places to play 10/20 LHE, a nice club that treated its players great and a gross tiny place that no one liked...but the gross place's owner and his friends were terrible and played in the bad club, so that's which room held up.

The reason the Bellagio hosts the bigger games is because there is a stock of poor players that likes to play there. It's the same reason there are more 5/10 tables at Bellagio too. If you get all the regulars in town to be like "let's play at the Wynn!" it's never going to last because Bellagio already has this reputation/legacy amongst the tourist fishies that that's where they like to play. It's not like the people who feed these games are going to be like, "Well, all the pros are going to the Wynn now, guess we'll have to go there!"

The Bellagio has already established brand loyalty and been catering to these recreational players since before the Wynn was opened, it's going to be hard to get them to see any rational reason for coming to the Wynn and making the games good there.

Although I agree it's a shame and that the Wynn room/staff is 1000x better than the Bellagio, the Bellagio will have better games unless the Wynn starts doing some crazy promos for the tourists. I would love to see them use the $100k freeroll loot for like high hands or other promos, though, tourists eat that **** up.

RR is not a troll and you are rapidly losing respect

For a casual poster who does not know anyone's reputation, he made a statement based on this thread alone. While I agree RR is not a troll, him coming on this thread 6 times repeating "protect your hand" could be viewed by OP as trollish, no?

Cards must be tabled. If I lost a pot, and if I couldn't see my opponents declared superior hand b/c he refuses to release it, you're saying I have no right to see the cards that deserve taking my pot from me? I don't think so...

I agree 100%, if a competant dealer pulls hands into the middle, then you do a disservice by keeping them in your hands. Protecting your hand doesn't have to always be physical, just pay attention and if your cards get anywhere close to being mucked, scream like bloody murder.

yes

yes, I hate ppl that hold up a game for this b.s.
If a dealer is competent, all hands tabled and the losing hands mucked, just throw your cards in face up and stack the pot already.

If a dealer is incompetent, or it's a big pot, just use common sense. Having a principle like iron-fisting your cards at showdown is just as unreasonable as never tipping again until the universe re-pays you what you lost unjustly.

I hate to break it to you, but if you find yourself in disagreement with RR about a matter involving procedure, you are wrong.

You are completely free to release your hand at anytime, just don't come back here crying when you get screwed.

It appears that 6 times was not nearly enough, becasue there are still posters out there that think it is ok to give up your winning hand without having the pot in front of them.

If they have taken them into the center they are not competant. How do you know if the dealer is about to muck them? The normal signal that they are about to muck them is that they take them from in front of you.

You can see the cards without them being pulled into the center of the table. Once many years ago I had a player that claimed he could not see the winning hand (I am pretty sure he could, some poker players take any chacne they get to bully a poker dealer). He asked me to pull the hand into the center (he still had cards he hadn't exposed yet). I suggested that if he couldn't see the hand that he stand up and take a better look, there was no way I was taking a player's winning hand from him. He started yelling for the floor. The floor came over and said to pull the hand to the center of the table. When the shift supervisor heard abotu what happened he came over and apologized to the table and explained to them the floor was was completly wrong. In the last 10 years this is the only time I can remember this becoming an issue.

RR, we maybe talking to tournament players that are used to the hole cards being put in the middle when they are "all in" and watching the turn and river being dealt.

I would hope they aren't talking about tourney rules in a cash game thread but it would explain a lot.

since several of the people defending delecto seem to know him personally, i'll add as a complete stranger that i also think this thread went surprisingly far in the direction of saying it's the OP's fault. i have played many hours of live poker over the years and never noticed how closely people protect their cards after they've flipped them over, or if dealers always push the pot before clearing the cards. granted i'm not the most careful player ever, but i try to know the rules and etiquette and follow them at all times.

if this grossly unfair situation happened to me and i was motivated to post about it as a form of bad advertising for the bellagio, i would be bummed if i got this reaction too. sure, it's slightly the OP's fault in the sense he could've avoided the problem, but i'm not sure the B&M forum has to focus on this point in every reply in order to "help players in the future." the spirit of the OP is to tell a story about a subtle form of favortism taking place at bellagio, it is perfectly natural for him to have felt a little powerless in the aftermath.

however i don't agree that the procedure nits here are at all similar to the asses who stayed silent at the table, i think the other players come off far worse than anyone else in this story.

Doesn't matter, imo. Like in Army, one jerk off costs the group brutal punishment. You all get in line or you all pay. GREAT motivator.

What about boot camp? Screw up by one entails punishment for all, and that is best motivator there is. Get in line as a unit. Perfection isn't required but the situation described is lightyears < than perfection.

I assume both these posts are a level. The thought that anyone would actually fail to grasp the differences between group dynamics in boot camp and among the staff at the Bellagio is pretty comical.

You need to hang out with Cinch a little, then you would understand perfectly. Reading his book will give you some insight also.