Player 1 is the type if guy who very quietly says all in when he wants to go all in. The dealer will hear it and announce all in.

Player 2 had headphones in...

The board is 3K9310. Player 2 leads the river for $40. Player 1 says all in and dealer announces player 1 as all in.

Player 2 flips pocket 9s and tosses his hand pass the betting line face up. The dealer looks at player 2 for around 20 seconds before placing his hand in the muck.

Player 2 then realized that there was a raise and after his hand was in the muck said "I obviously was calling". Supervisor gets called over.... What's the correct ruling?

Other note - dealer never clarified what player 2s intended action was.

If player 2 speaks up immediately there is no reason to not let him call the bet. His hand was face up and seen so there is no issue about identifying the cards.

If Player 2 sits with his thumb up his ass and player1 shows his hand (assuming it is a lesser hand) and then seat 2 speaks up .... I say tough luck you folded......

As for the dealer not clarifying the action .... the action didn't need clarification from the dealers perspective. A player raised and his opponent folded his hand ..... whats to clarify?

Maybe clarify that the dealer is not a vindictive idiot who wants to punish Mr Headphones for whatever reason?

I don't like Mr Headphones, but the dealer should be aware that it is entirely possible that he did not hear either his opponent or the dealer say "all in". What if, instead of headphones, the player was 60+ with an obvious hearing problem? How about asking Mr Headphones, "Are you folding?" or "Do you realize that your opponent went all in"?

I assume, as in 98.7% of these cases, that the opponent did not put any chips into the pot to indicate that he was all in. Yes, "verbal is binding", but casinos are noisy and poker is also "a visual game".

Since OP never stated that the opponent showed his cards, I would allow Mr Headphones to call, if he wants.

You'd need to explain the 20 seconds (!) of staring to support your assertion.

The dealer just looked at him like he was crazy for folding (as did the whole table).

So shall I do this everytime a player folds? Or just when I don't think a fold is advisable? I'm sorry sir .... I really didn't think you should fold there ..... are you positive that's what you want to do?

thats an obvious fold. you cant let him call now. as soon as the dealer mucked his 99 player 1 probably said sonething like "wow cant believe you folded that. you had me.". how can you possibly let him call after the fact?

not to mention the fact that throwing your cards forward past the betting line when facing a bet is a fold, anyway

And on the clarification issue .... when I take your cards ..... thats clarification.... that I believe you folded.

Well, if you are going to sit there and stare at his cards for 20 seconds before doing something ... maybe you could exercise your vocal cords.

If you are so sure that it is a fold, don't wait 20 seconds. Insta-muck his cards and shove the pot to Mr All-in.

You are, of course, sure that it is a fold because you announced "all in" and everybody at the table heard and understood you, even those with headphones or hearing difficulties or even language problems.

Tough luck for headphones guy.

Also, I don't think comparing a guy wearing headphones to someone with legitimate hearing loss is fair because headphones guy goes out of his way not to hear what's going on.

No real clear answers on what supervisor ruling should be?

Why are you ignoring the twenty-second stare?

I agree the dealer shouldn't have waited.

So, you think a dealer would act any differently?

Assuming player 1 hasn't shown his hand, I'd let player 2 call. Then have a talk to dealer afterwards.

Because I don't think it matters. The dealer does something here he shouldn't he thinks to himself "I wouldn't fold that hand so I'm going to wait and see what happens."



How does this change what should happen here?

This is a house rules issue first. Is the act of throwing your cards beyond the betting line a fold? Is showing your cards a cause to declare your hand dead? If the answer is yes to either of them, then the dealer should not be hesitating. Muck the cards, push the pot to the winner and move on to the next hand.

However, it is reasonable to assume that those aren't the rules in this room because the dealer hesitated. Once the dealer stops, he needs to clarify the action.

Supervisor ruling - "I don't think he intended to fold 9s full and the dealer should have clarified his action, it's a call".

It doesn't. It changes your understanding of the situation:

The twenty seconds of staring suggests that you are wrong.

House rule will dictate of course; where I play tossing hand face up is not a fold; a fold must be face down; so if you toss your cards face up, the dealer will ask you what your intended action is.

I find it hard to believe any dealer stared for 20 seconds. That's an incredibly long time. Especially if he didn't say anything to clarify. I think if the dealer actually didn't take my cards after that long a time, then he must think I called. Because no dealer would wait 20 seconds to muck a hand he thought was folded. As for a dealer not wanting to clarify action, that dog doesn't hunt. If you pause for 20 seconds, you are obviously attempting to clarify the action, so go ahead and ask "what is your action?". Or, if house rules say face up cards over the line is a fold, then just take them. But why the wait?

So I'd say it should be ruled a call. And if player 1 never bothered to move any chips forward into the pot, or the dealer put out an all in button, then it's certainly possible the player 2 thought player 1 just called his bet. I don't think a dealer clarifying action by saying something like "what is your action" influences action like saying "are you sure you want to fold".

I don't really care about the topic, I just came in to congratulate OP on the thread title. This is how it should be done!

Original title: Whqt is the correct ruling?

When I fold face up the dealers always ask me if I am folding before touching my cards. **** dealer, his fault.

I agree it is unlikely. Likely either an exageration by OP or OP like most people is a poor judge of time. Of course it is possible that it really was 20 seconds. In any event we know there was a pause.

well if he thought you called why would he not be looking at the other player to get him to turn up his cards, why would he not announce your hand, push up the relevant board cards?

I think that this pause does not tell us anything about what the dealer is thinking .... he might be zoned out and thinking what he is going to do after work.
You are hung up on the idea that the dealers pause is because he didn;t know what the action was and needed outside clarification. But that is not necessarily the case. Sometimes when players do unexpected things it causes the dealer to become confused and have to take a moment to process everything. For example last week I was dealing a triple draw game. On a three pot after the the third draw the first to act threw his cards forward. I froze (long enough for the jackoff next player to start yelling at me) before mucking the cards ..... why? Not because I needed someone outside to clarify the action. But because it took me by surprise and it caused me to start thinking about whether this was a draw, did I forget to give him a draw? did they check around and we are in a drawing round. I didn't need anyone to clarify anything ... I just needed a moment to process what was happening. The same thing can happen here with the face up fold. The dealer isn't expecting it..... so his mind starts churning to get it processed..... doesn;t mean it needs clarfification.


No but it does give the player who folded notice that he may now change his mind. And the surprised look on the dealers face or the other players faces may cause him to relook and change his mind.

Well, there you go then. That's the ruling.

There's no set in stone ruling for this kind of situation. It's on the supervisor to make a judgment call, taking in consideration player context and house-specific rules.