HU Pot

Villain bets $25
Dealer states "bet 45 dollars" (Dealer KNEW the bet was 25 and meant to say 25, this is important for what happens next)
I throw in 2 $25 chips, trying to call, expecting $5 change
Dealer says "Raise to 50 dollars"
At first I thought the dealer was joking, but before I can even figure out whats happening the other player instantly goes all in

I asked the other players and they all heard the dealer say 45 dollars also.

So what's the remedy now ? If they let me just call it's pretty unfair to the other player since I have much more info about his hand, but forcing me to put in $50 when the dealer misspoke is unfair to me. Ruling ?

The first thing is that there is a big difference between 5 red chips and 9 chips (or a green and 4 reds). You should be asking yourself why you aren't paying attention in a HU pot so you could see for yourself that it wasn't $45. That's the real remedy.

That said, there is no remedy since there was "substantial action" after the mistake. The reality is that this only cost you $5, since you were willing to call $45 anyway and you are now probably crushed. In addition, if it went to $50, you probably would have called anyway.

It can't be reversed without opening things up to angle shooters who will mini-raise, then "claim" later that they thought they were just calling if re-raised.

It would appear there has been too much action to change it now

How is going to open up for angle shooters? Does the dealer regularly miss declare bets?

While I agree, the difference between $25 and $45 should be obvs. What would have happened if the guy had bet $100 (in a stack of $20, $5 chips) then the dealer said $110. Then OP throws in 2 black chips to make the call.

Also, substantial action does apply here, there has only been one action after the mistake (i.e. the guy's all in bet) and usually you need 2 actions for that rule to apply.

If this is the river, you called $25, and we go to show down.

Yep.

First note that some unfairness is going to have to happen here. Either you get cheated by not knowing the amount you had to call, or the guy gets cheated by being induced to reveal the strength of his hand too quickly.

IMO it's a greater injustice to make you call action that never happened, so I'd say you called $25. However, if it's not the river it's not a great outcome because now you'll play the rest of the hand with the knowledge that the guy wanted to 3-bet AI.

Pay more attention to the way people bet next time. It's a good place to watch for tells.

A competent dealer and floor would have easily resolved this problem. If not, perhaps this isn't the room you should frequent, or perhaps simply pay more attention to what is going on.

Why are so many people averse to verbalizing their actions? Just say, "Call" before tossing in your chips and then it doesn't matter how bad the dealer f-ed up, villain doesn't get a chance to re-raise.

WTF? Where's the "substantial action"? Where's the "slippery slope for angle shooters?"

Dealer told him a bet. He put out that amount. Dealer immediately said he was wrong about what he said. Correct the bet and move on.

Sheesh. Some people like to make things far more complicated than they have to be. Shockingly, it's not me this time.

I definately do not think you should have to put $45 into the pot when it was clearly a dealer error as you thought you were calling and not re-opening the betting, i think the bet should stand at 25 and you both see the turn, as your intention was to call which is often the key factor in rulings like this

The bet is $25. The call is $25.

And next time, don't let the dealer do your counting the bet for you. Or seeing what the player tables at showdown.

The house takes the rake/drop. The dealer takes the tip. Neither take any responsibility.

I don't see a problem, you were willing to call his 45$ bet you put that much in.. he shoves you fold.. game over.

You don't see the difference between:
1. Calling $50
2. Putting in $50 and reopening the betting

If not, GL

Upon further review, I've reversed.

Indeed. The grossest injustice would be if our hero wanted to call (whatever the amount) and instead somehow reopened the action. Especially because the original bettor knows that our hero only wanted to call. $25, lets see the river.

This. I play mostly limit and I verbalize my important actions. And it's not nearly as big an issue in limit than it is in no limit (though it protects me from the string bet rule). In no limit, it's really, really important that your action is absolutely clear.

Not only should you verbalize your action if necessary, but you should ask what the previous action was if you aren't 100 percent sure about it. And you should watch for discrepancies between what people do and what is announced, and, again, ask what the action was if there is such a discrepancy.

Really, this stuff is much, much more important than worrying about tells and information. 99 percent of low limit live players are clueless about tells and don't process information anyway.

I was 100% sure about the action. The dealer said the bet was $45 so I was 100% sure it was $45, since I've never had a dealer grossly misdeclare the bet size before (I've had them say $110 when it was actually $105 or something minor that didn't matter).

How can you not tell the difference between 5 and 9, and be 100% sure about it?

Shockingly, I'm the one who's going to complicate this one, but with an easy qualifier at the end.

This might wind up being a difficult decision for the floor. However, if everyone agreed that the bet was $25 and the dealer said the bet was $45, I'd probably rule it to be a call, despite the fact that action had occurred after the "raise" (whether this is "substantial action" would be quite debatable and we should have psandman discuss that with some lawyers ).

That being said, I realize that in many cases players will have such poor eyesight that they very well might not be able to clearly see what amount was bet at the other end of the table. This might be further exasperated by bet placements, lighting, ignant artwork on the felts (i.e. harrah's stupid black and white wsop chip insignias, which do make it hard to see chips because they blend into the felt), and the ol' seat1/seat10 phenomenon. Therefore because I'm more willing than many to give benefit of the doubt when someone says they acted according to what the dealer said rather than what they may or may not have seen... it's looking like it was a call of $25.

The easy remedy of course is to pay attention to the action. If you can see the chips then the dealer should only be confirming what you already know.

Easy qualifier:


It's quite unfortunate for the reraiser but the decision should be that you called.

al

I assumed there was a 25 dollar chip at the bottom. The bet wasn't stacked and he was across from me, so I couldn't clearly see the bottom chip. When the dealer tells me $45 I just assume it's a $45 bet (and this has never given me any problems before). I guess I could start counting down every bet, but I'll stick to trusting the dealers ;-)

This doesn't make sense. You should be both listening to the dealer and looking at the chips. So you hear $45 but you only see $25 of chips out there, or at least you can't quickly verify that it is $45. So, you need to ask "is the bet $25 or $45?" or "are you sure the bet was $45?" before acting.

And since it is a low limit game and not High Stakes Poker against Phil Hellmuth and Doyle Brunson, you shouldn't worry that by verbalizing a question you are giving away information by asking this.

I wasn't worried about giving out any information lol. I heard $45, I looked at the chips and it looked like it prolly was $45 (as I've posted before in other threads, my eyes aren't good so I can't see perfectly, I often rely on dealers to read the board for me if I'm one of the end seats), so I threw out $45 to call. I realize this method failed me in this case but this is actually the first time this has happened to me since I've began playing live poker, so I think my method is all right.

$25 = 5 red chips. $45 = 4 red + 1 green. Since I couldn't see the bottom chip clearly, it could have been either one.

Edit: From now on though I'll try to say call before throwing in a call to avoid future problems. Thx all.

Makes sense.