It may be standard in most live casinos, but I still don't consider it correct. It serves the casino and its employees, not the players or the game.

Poker is not a game of speed or transparency. It's a game of strategy and deception. At each step of the game, players attempt to outwit their opponents by deceiving them into making mistakes. This is no different at showdown.

Yes, cards speak. But to what do they speak? It should be against the value of an opponent's hand. But the opponent has no hand until it is tabled. It is incumbent upon the opponent to read the other tabled hand and determine if they wish to table theirs or not. That's part of the game.

Making the game faster serves mainly the casino which makes more rake, and the dealer who makes more tips. I believe that is why this rule developed and is used by most casinos. Not because it helps the players.

It also may have been influenced by online play, where such game interaction between players cannot take place at showdown. It's one aspect of poker play that is lost on the Internet, along with physical and most verbal tells.

I'm old school. I grew up on live poker, not online play. I think today there are too many players who try to translate the online experience to live play. You see that in other aspects of rules for live play these days as well. For instance, most tournament pros who have come to live play from online will automatically give an accurate count of their chip stack when asked. By contrast, older pros, like Doyle, don't ever. You also see the faster pace of the online game being imposed in various ways on live games in new rules and player attitudes.

Sometimes the game evolves in ways that aren't in the spirit of the battle. Poker is a game of battles, every man for himself. It's should not be the casino's place to impose house rules that restrict the available battle strategies beyond those that prevent cheating.

^^^^ angle-shooting nit

This is not one of those battles.

Once the hand is tabled everyone is entitled to that information. Maybe I play too much stud where dealers are constantly reading out board cards and tabled hands so that the blind people across the table can see what is tabled, but the same thing implies at hold'em.

When you table q high, everyone at the table should be able to see you have q high, but it's no longer a secret that you have q high. The dealer telling everyone that you have q high is not some state secret, it's a fact that everyone is entitled to.

If you don't want the dealer telling everyone you have q high don't table q high.

Dealers are in a tough spot at the lower limits with the mix of experience that may or may not be at the table. It's certainly in the dealer and casino's best interest to keep the game moving along from a revenue (tip) aspect.

I find no fault in a dealer 'creating' the tabled holding's best possible hand by moving cards around the table. I would just prefer that they don't actually say anything until a player in the hand has tabled their hand or mis-represented the tabled hand somehow and need correction. Even correction could be an issue since the dealer would need to judge the voice inflextion of a player when they announce something.

We have a blind player who comes in quite often and the game does change when the dealer announces all of the action to accommodate this one player. She doesn't use a 'partner' at all and surprisingly can stack chips correctly when pushed a pot.

The dealers try to be careful with what they say, but it's very difficult not to influence action when the dealers do this. They try to avoid 'another club' or 'another 4' type of phrases.

Interesting spot that perhaps doesn't occur as much as one might seem to think. GL

Just because you 'disagree' doesn't make it the wrong way to do things. Doing them by the law of RRoP is the way it should be done. You can push for the change of this rule all you want, but you cannot simply disregard it because you disagree with it. lol..

Is there anything to be said about not chasing away the fish? I know there was that one time long ago when you walked to the casino through 2 miles of snow and your opponent tabled a hand and you misread the board and mucked your winner, costing you the pot...but if a handful of "bad players" get chased off from the game because of this kind of stuff, well, what's more important to you? Obviously the short-sighted "I want this pot right now and I don't care about the long term affect it might have on on the future player pool", right?

Think maybe you're being a bit optimistic here?

Is Hero angling here if the Villain mucks and Hero says nothing to correct the dealer?

As a player, I'm in favour of just about anything that speeds up play. I know that I'm not the only one.

As a dealer there is obviously huge conflict of incentives here. To me as a dealer the game is about speed and transparency. This lines up directly with what my employer wants from me. Even though the player is also an employer, there aren't enough people out there complaining about this for it to affect me at all.

But even from the players perspective, I still see this as only a rule that should apply to high stakes games... say 5/10+ 30/60+. Could go into everything about new players, inexperienced players, angleshooters, etc but Im guessing everyone can figure that out. Save those levels of the mental battle for higher stakes... I see nothing wrong with that.

There are plenty of spots to find an edge at the lower stakes games. There are plenty of players who will still make mistakes at showdown even when the dealer announces the hand out loud. The difference it makes is just not worth the countless times someone has to ask the dealer for information at showdown.

are you saying you believe in strategy and deception at showdown? there's written rules against such things.

employing strategies and deceiving your opponent at showdown is cheating

So let's say at showdown you have tabled a flush and your opponent has flashed his cards but not tabled them. He has a boat but doesn't realize it. He says, "So, you have the flush?" Do you say "Yes" and let him muck or do you tell him he has you beat?

There are written rules against certain things at showdown but not against others. There is no written rule that says the dealer needs to announce hands as they are tabled. That's an interpretation of RRoP, as written. If a dealer announces hands only after all live hands are tabled or mucked, it would still comply with what RRoP actually says.

There is also nothing in the TDA rules about a dealer announcing hands as they are tabled:

It is purely a house rule.

And I doubt that I'm the only one who thinks speeding up the game in this manner serves the house and not the players.

If Hero shows his hand at showdown and the dealer correctly calls the hand, then what more do you want?

Is this where I'm supposed to come to your rescue and yell out:

STOP!!! What are you doing?!!! I Only have Queen high!

********
Seriously, I hope you were kidding.

50/100 Omaha8. Heads up. Player tables 875A on a 5 7 9 A 6 for a straight and a low.

Opponent says "Oh he's got A5 for the low?" (for whatever reason, it's just an example)

You guys saying "Dealer should stfu" don't think the dealer should correct him and say "Live 8" ? (or however you'd read that)

What if the opponent just asks "What's his low?" What does the dealer say then?

Only if the opponent has tabled his hand should the dealer say anything, imo.

Nothing. Wait for the player to table his hand, imo.

Similarly, the dealer should say nothing if during a hand a player asks how many chips another player who has not gone all in has. I just give this as another example of where it is not correct for the dealer to answer.

The dealer should just stare back?

That's just crazy. Especially in omaha, players and dealers read hands all the time. Once the hand is tabled it's public information that everyone is entitled to. I can do without the "just" in "just queen high," but that's it.

Once the hand is shown down there is no more secrecy, everyone in the world is entitled to know what it is.

Yes. Just as in the additional example I gave. Happens often. If player insists, dealer can say something like, "I'm not supposed to say anything until all hands are tabled."

The reading of hands by the dealer and other players should be done, but not until all hands are tabled or mucked. Sometimes, as in the OP, the Queen high is required to be tabled first. It is then "public information" as you say - available for anyone to look at - cards speak. That doesn't mean that it is necessarily incumbent upon the dealer to announce it. Neither of the commonly-accepted official rules - RRoP and TDA - require the dealer to announce a tabled hand before all other live hands are tabled or mucked. That is only a house rule.

It's a rule which, imo, is implemented because it benefits the house, not because it benefits the players. I think a lot of players today, perhaps yourself included, feel they are entitled to the dealer's automatic help in reading their opponent's tabled hand before tabling their own simply because this rule is common now at poker rooms. It's what they do so you have come to expect it. That doesn't mean it is correct or the best way to conduct a poker game, from the players' standpoint. I expect my opponents to be able to read tabled hands for themselves. It is upon them to figure it out or simply table their hand, not the dealer.

And by the way, if a dealer is supposed to announce hands as they are tabled, why did the dealer in the OP wait until the opponent miscalled the tabled hand before he announced it? The dealer wasn't announcing a tabled hand, but rather was correcting the opponent before they tabled their hand. Is that the house rule at that poker room? Dealers aren't required to announce hands as they are tabled, but are supposed to correct a player who hasn't yet tabled their live hand if that player happens to misread the tabled hand out loud?

I don't know why the dealer waited, that could be an issue, it could not be. Reading every hand would slow things down (for everyone, not just the house) so I don't think waiting to speak up until there is a mistake or a question is an issue.

It also helps the other player at the table. Speeding up the game doesn't just benefit the house, it benefits everyone. I go to play poker, anything that gets the next hand started is better for more people than just sitting and waiting. More hands means more rake for the house, more tips for the dealer, more +ev hands for good players, and more fun for the fish. Sitting and waiting for someone to screw up only helps one person, the guy who will win if someone makes a mistake.

People should be able to read hands for themselves, but dealers/players helping doesn't ruin anything. Maybe i play too much stud and omaha because it's very common there. It's tough for me in the 2 seat to read the 7 seat's hand in either of those games, never mind the much older players who can't actually see, so the dealer/players read them as soon as there is a question without hesitation, and all it does is speed things up and make everyone happy.

I don't see anything wrong with this situation at all, if there is something wrong it is a very very very minor issue.

But if dealers didn't read hands or answer questions before all hands were tabled or mucked, a lot more players would simply table their hand quickly instead of trying to figure out the hands first. That would speed up the game more in the long run.

And then you yell at the dealer for "telling the opponent to just table his hand"


What is your net gain on this "strategy" by the way? Like, 6 big bets per year? Totally worth it man. You'll probably gain more equity from keeping one bad player in your poker room happy than making him salty and not wanting to play as much as he normally would.




And then you lose those pots that you think your "strategy" gains.....I'm really confused by your line.

This is so foreign to me. Assisting in the reading of hands seems completely natural and necessary, especially considering the shape and size of poker tables. I don't consider it a matter of opinion.

Should the 8 seat walk over to the 3 seat to read the hand?

Very good point. 9 or 10 seat ovals are much more difficult visually for lots of folks than 5 or 6 seat rounds from the "good ole days". It doesn't matter to some players , I know, but I feel much more comfortable in 4, 5, and 6 for vision purposes.

I'm not even sure what the correct procedure actually is. For example, PokerXanadu feels that the dealers shouldn't be saying anything until/unless the other player tables his hand. And, I won't say that I agree/disagree with him on that, but, I'm certain that each room has a rule that pertains to it, so, imho, as long as the dealers are following the rules of their room, then that's all that should matter.

This is what I do, and what the vast majority would do in my games. Truth is, there are players that are really quick when it comes to knowing exactly what they hold/what you hold, and then there are those who have a harder time with it; maybe they don't see very well, or maybe they haven't been playing O8 for as long as me. Either way, whether I announce my hand or you lean over and try to figure what my hand is...bottom line, it's going to get read. It's up to you if you care to get the next hand dealt to you in 45 seconds opposed to 8 seconds. I like 8. So to answer your question: I don't even think it's necessary for the dealer to comment because WE are announcing our hands immediately when someone asks.


Heads up pot:

ME: (I table my hand) and then, if I have any type of "live" card for my low, then I prefer to verbally announce my hand. "Eight high straight, live five."

OPPONENT: (cards still face down) "What's your low?"

ME: "Live five."

So, naturally, I would have no problem with a dealer declaring what my hand is, and, you don't have to have your hand tabled as far as I'm concerned. Ill say this, though, it isn't consistent.

Just to add to this: If I don't have any "live" cards as part of my holding, then a lot of times I'll just table it and let my opponent show or muck. And, there's no hidden agenda for me choosing to just table my hand opposed to verbally announcing it; it's just that, some hands are just easy to read with no need for a verbal declaration of it. And I play with so many of the same people that by this point, I already know who can read a hand and who needs assistance. And for the latter? Yeah, I'll tell you what I have.

"For the love of God, can we get another hand dealt out, please?"

That's all I want.