Yes .. need to push this for two reasons .. one, because it's either a call or 2500 and two, because they need to be told to take what Players say with a grain of salt and even possibly ask Players to SHUT UP until they are finished talking to the Dealer.

No need to discuss a 'pump fake' in this thread since it really is room to room these days. GL

Regular little 1:00 daily tourney, I push in as an old guy is telling another player that he usually plays at another local room, but they play too crazy, so he came to our room today because he "likes to play with players who actually want to improve their poker games". After telling him he definitely came to the right place (which gave all of our regulars a good laugh), I watch him lose several hands and criticize the play of those who beat him... Then at the 300/600 level he raises to 2000 and gets two calls. Flop AQQ, checked around. Turn ace (board of AQQA), he bets 10k of his 26k stack. Tight old lady min-raises to 20k, then he snap shoves, and she calls. Obviously she tables the ace (AK in fact). He shows... pocket tens. AKA, ten high. He mutters to himself and goes to the cage to rebuy. I had fun that down from start to finish.

94% chance he bitched to people about how he flopped two pair and loses to this lady who called preflop behind and miracles a boat on the turn.

Pot - Kettle stories are the best ..


There's a Player in our pool that will absolutely table change every single time I sit down because I raise PF 'too much' for his 80% limping range. Yet the same Player will NOT play a $5 Bomb Pot where he gets to see a Flop basically for free. GL

"In all my years .. " Man, when I start out using that phrase I must be getting old!

A poker first for me .. and it happened twice in about 10 days .. that I guess is 'just fine' but also just doesn't seem right either (maybe).


So a Player who loses the pot still gets a Promo payout?

Case #1 .. Board 97979 .. winner K9 .. loser 77 .. but 77 still is awarded a 'Made Hand' Promo bonus.

Case #2 .. Board AAQA6 .. winner Q9 .. loser TT .. but TT is still awarded a $2k 'High Hand' bonus for AAATT due to using both hole cards, whereas Q9 DID NOT use both hold cards for AAAQQ.



Here's a twist that was discussed .. What happens if either 77 or TT 'wants' to fold on the River but still claim the Promo Bonus? Obv this is a Promo language read and interpretation that I may or may not dive into .. Thoughts? GL

Case #1: I guess no Bad Beat promo/jackpot? Too bad. K9 gets the same bonus, no?

I asked a dealer about a similar case #2 situation. He said they would be eligible for a HH bonus even if beaten by a better hand that doesn't qualify. Lone Butte in Phoenix if it matters. Obviously it has to hold as HH for that period.

Obviously promos vary from room to room, but the rules are generally made clear. Regarding the losing full house hands wanting to just fold and then also collect the promo money: it reminds me of players asking if they have to call in order to collect the "aces cracked" promo. Of course you have to call! Why would anyone be awarded a promo for a dead hand?

Incidentally, about 6 months ago I dealt a hand where one player flopped quad kings, and lost the hand to runner runner royal flush. The player with the royal felted the quads player, but it was the quads that won $500 for the high hand (both hole cards must play). I got tipped by both, so in my opinion it all worked out for the best.

I worked at a place where case 2 was quite often, until they changed the rule to must win the hand. Once AAA flopped and four people with pocket pairs got a 500 payout

I dealt this hand:

Board: KKKAx
Hands: AK and AA

Both players won an "instant high hand" promotion because there was no rule that you had to win the hand and the minimum to win was Aces full of Kings using both cards.

Not long after this the room added that you had to table the winning hand to win this promotion so under the changed rules, only the Quad Kings would have won.

That's a jackpot in many rooms i've worked in

So when this happened, the guy with AA folded but showed his hand, and got paid the promo? That is weird.

Rules are rules, until they are changed . And when these weirdo things happen nobody thought of, they do.

He didn't say the player folded, don't know why you would think that.

OK I see now... I somehow overlooked the "winning" part and was just thinking of the "tabling" part, which obviously both players did. Now it makes sense. Carry on.

No, there was a showdown at the river. The guy with Aces called a river bet and while doing so said "I am pretty sure you have the King but I have to call." Whether that was because he knew he would get a HH bonus or he just couldn't fold Kings full there, I do not recall.

I had the silliest floor call yesterday. I am still shaking my head over it.

1st level of a tournament. Blinds are 100-100 with a 100 BB ante. As the level starts winding down, the players finish a hand. As the last player discards to a bet I push the pot, as I finish I look up and see about ~16 seconds on the clock.

I quickly move the button and gather up the cards. It was a very friendly table (except one player), where everyone had been chating with each other and getting along. So as I am gathering up the cards I say in a friendly manner that the last player folded with just enough time for me to get out one more hand at the 100/100 level. As I am placing the cards on the table getting ready to cut for the riffle the big blind puts out his blind and tosses in his ante. His ante slides perfectly into the cards as I split them and gets caught up. He apologizes and I smile at him as I pull the chip out if the cards and crack a joke about not doing it again. I fumble for a few seconds getting the chip out of the cards. The clock ticks to zero and the TD announces that the blinds are up to 100/200.

I start to shuffle and the one unfriendly player at the table says that the blinds should be 100/200. I tell him that I had already moved the button announced the next hand and started to gather the cards. He says that the next hand doesn't start until the first riffle. His argument is that since I didn't start to riffle until after the announcement, it should be 100/200.

Now technically, the procedures of our room state that the next hand begins at the start of the next shuffle. All of the floors and dealers I have worked with have interpreted this very liberally. As in the start of the shuffle is when the dealer starts gathering the cards (you can't shuffle an ungathered deck...). Also, gathering the cards could be considered a mini-wash of the cards (especially if done like I do it where I will stab the stub into the muck multiple times picking up a some cards with each stab and mini-washing them) and a wash is definitely considered part of the shuffle.

However the player insists that the TDA says that it is the start of the riffle. He wants me to call a floor. I tell him that our room says the start of the shuffle and interprets the definition of shuffle liberally. He says the start of the shuffle is the 1st riffle as the TDA states.

Of course I look at him trying to figure out if he was joking. I can't even believe this is an issue. It is level one of the tournament. He isn't joking, he wants a floor called. So I look up and call for a floor. The nearest floor is a person I have never seen before. He is new (from talking to him afterwards I discovered he is experienced, but not here). As he comes up to the table, the unfriendly player immediately says to him that the next hand does not start until the 1st riffle. The floor looks at him and quickly says that is correct. The player then says that the blinds should be 100/200 since I didn't start to riffle until after the announcement. The floor nods in agreement.

I try and tell him that that isn't the way we do things here (my mistake). I got caught up in the discussion with the player and continued it when the floor showed up rather than starting from the beginning with the floor so he could catch up. The floor made a mistake by listening to the player first rather than asking me what happened in detail.

So the floor asks me when I started the first riffle, I honestly admit that I didn't start to riffle until after the clock expired. So the floor said the blinds are 100/200. I start to try and explain (but....), but then I think why in the heck am I arguing over this so I just shut up. I really don't care. No one else at the table has said a word, in fact most have rolled their eyes that this is even happening. So I just shut up and deal.

The floor leaves, I collect an extra 100 from the BB and I get out the cards.

The problem is then the unfriendly player starts in on me. He says that it is not his first tournament and he knows the rules. He says I need to learn the rules. Etc, etc, etc. He won't let it go. Everyone else at the table doesn't say a word for 5 or 6 minutes. What had been a friendly talkative table is now a morgue. Only the unfriendly player is talking.

At one point, the TD comes over and stands behind me. He says rather loudly that the start of a hand has always been the start of a shuffle, just like the TDA says. I wasn't going to explain right there and then so I just told the TD that I would come over and explain when I got tapped out.

Of course this sets off the unfriendly player once again. So I heard about it for another 5 or 6 minutes with no one else talking. Whatever.

I get tapped out for break so I make a beeline for the tournament desk. When the TD gets a second I get his attention and try and explain what happened.

The poker gods smiled upon me.

Literally just as I started my explanation about the timer and me announcing the next hand and then the chip getting caught up in the cards, the head of our poker room walks up to the podium and listens to what I am saying. He doesn't wait for the TD tonsay anything and immediately starts saying that since I had announced the next hand that it was the next hand. That the blinds should have been 100/100. He basically said that if the chip getting thrown into the cards had slowed me down then it was the same as if I had gotten ready to shuffle and the cards slipped out of my hand and went all over the table. Once I announced it, that was all that mattered. He basically just laid out my argument for me and reinforced my thoughts. He backed me 100%.

The TD obviously didn't have all of the information I told him when he originally came over to my table. He started to apologize to me, but I stopped him and told him that I hadn't given the inital floorperson all of the information (my fault) so he was working from faulty information.

I then found the inital floorperson and discussed everything with him. I said I left him high and dry by not starting from the beginning and he admitted he should have spoken to me first rather than listen to the player.

All of this drama over a stupid timing issue on when a hand starts at a meaningless point of the tournament that no sane person would really care about.

On these promo's, both hole cards need to play. That's my understanding.

I do hate it when rooms start fudging the TDA rules trying to make things "player friendly" or whatever their reason is. It just sets up scenarios like this where it's TDA vs how-we-always-do-it. Someone always winds up looking bad or feeling like a ruling was personal. Changes are rarely documented or passed along to new dealers/floors properly.

I used to wonder where players with different interpretations of when the hand starts came from. I'd be dealing a big WPT or whatever and they'd try to talk me into sticking to the old blind levels because they had their blinds out already or they thought the act of pulling the cards together into a pile marked the start of the shuffle. No, the announcement didn't come after I started the shuffle. I still have not started it.

This varies completely by room. In most rooms that is probably true, but in the small room I play the most, it is not.

Without actually reading the Promo myself it is concluded that any Player who wishes to claim a Promo must have a live hand .. meaning they must reach Showdown or have that last live hand.

As pointed out it can cause some grief for Players who aren't Regs or do go from room to room. Perfect case in point about 4 weeks ago .. Player Turns a Royal during a High Hand Promo period and everyone folds. Player starts to go nuts because that Royal is worth over $6k on a 'Made Hand' Promo .. as well as the $1500 posted for the current High Hand Promo period. Problem ..

1) High Hand Promo doesn't have a min-pot requirement
2) Made Hand Promo requires $20 min-pot since that's the threshold for the drop.

Player doesn't win the $6k .. only the HH amount


Another twist to this is that for a Quad 'Made Hand' you must hold a pocket pair .. for the HH you don't, but both hole cards must play. (So if you have K4 and the Flop is KKK you really need to get everyone to fold before the Turn.) GL

Had to eject a player for the first time last night. For background, I've been dealing a social game since the summer.

P1: usually a nice guy, but drinks too much. Losing player, never knows where or what the action is. Always uses the excuse that "I've only been playing for six months." I've been dealing for ~3, and he shows no indication that he's gaining any ability to stay with the action. So. someone with whom it's constantly frustrating to play.

P2: nice old guy. Never stops talking--just rambles constantly. Will kind of crow a little bit when he gets a big hand, but nothing personal--just will keep bringing up the fact that he had quads 20 minutes ago, for example.

Anyway, they get in a hand, and P2 beats P1. I have no idea what set P1 off; I didn't hear anything. At first, I thought P2 was just throwing out a light-hearted, "**** you, P1" when P1 beat him.

But then he continued, calling P2 arrogant and an *******. I announced a one-hand penalty for P1. Of course he doesn't hear me because he's yelling at P2 and continues the abuse. After a couple more statements, I said, "That's it. Cash him out. P1, you're done."

He bitched for a little bit, then went and whined to the bartender. Other players in the game talked to bartender when he came by later, to make sure bartender (also the owner? not sure) understood why P1 was ejected. Sounded as if bartender was ok with the way it went down once he got the whole story.

I'll be interested to see if P1 comes back, or is allowed to.

Cash game? Is a one hand sit out even a penalty?

Yeah, cash game, but in the loosest possible sense of the word. None of these people can play even a little bit; it's really just a social event.

After ~3 months, I've gotten them to (most of the time) act in order and do better about announcing bets/not string betting. Working on getting them to mind OPTAH, but I think that's a lost cause.

So, it's pretty much anything goes. In the heat of the moment, I thought that would show how upset I was--"Hey, you've done something so bad, I'm gong to make you sit out."

I have a short fuse when I perceive unfairness--need to work on that. Realized later, one thing I didn't do was to make sure P1 understood that this wasn't a permanent ban; he's being thrown out of that night's game for abuse, but could come back next time if he can mind himself. Oops.

On the plus side, he drinks enough, he probably won't remember.

Who's the Floor? I assume you perhaps cover both roles. Did all of this happen before the bartender/owner could come over to assist? Were the other Players taken aback by the ejection? If you are assuming all 'game' control then having a short fuse may not be a bad thing as the Players will come to understand that they need to heed to your statements.

IMO Players shouldn't be penalized until there's been a 'conversation' where the Floor has the Player's 'full' attention. Obv if things get out of control then that goes out the window. If you're the only authority, then your options are limited for sure.

One would assume that either another Player or the bartender knows how to make contact, maybe not. I can't imagine someone thinking that 'any' ban is a perma-ban without that being directly explained to them .. and it sounds like the Player just went over to the bar, so he'll be back IMO.

As I indicated, it's probably good that you had a short fuse in your first major incident as it should've shown the others how it may happen the next time as well. GL

You're right in that I run the game. The bartender/owner just got involved because P1 was bitching, and next time he was near the table, one of the other players stopped him and made sure he understood that P1 got out of line with his talk.

It'll be fine. He'll get over it, or die still pissed. I'm comfortable either way.