I have dealer friends who told me that it's not good to sign EO often because management watches who is always signing EO. Is it true? They are part-timers btw. I assume that would hurt their chances of getting full-time correct?

As for full timers, I don't think they care if management watches them sign the EO list or not.

Probably shouldn't say. There may be something in the T&Cs about talking about the company etc. and one day I might get really angry at them for something and post here

We are seeing a ton of new rooms having a requirement of dual skilled dealers for this exact reason. When hiring you are looking at both Poker and TG experience, this allows you to create optimal spreads for both Poker and TG, it also allows for a pure extra board, giving so much more flexibility to the floors.

While its still being phased in, its not uncommon now to have dual coded TG dealers/Poker dealers to allow for Poker fluctuations (Tournaments) as well as spread fluctuations (Full spread on weekends for TG).

The company I work for allow eventual training on TGs if you request it but for now I'm quite comfortable where I am considering the amount of whinging I hear from the gaming staff.

How about just the full-timers and part-timers pool tips? Would you be down with that Suit?

Floor and management have their own salary going.

I know dealers who are ok and others are not. What are your opinions on dealers pooling tips. Yay or nay?

On the topic of floor calls, I had a fun one this week.

I get called to a 1/2 HE table and see a board of T33TT. I see three exposed hands: A8, 65, KJ.

The dealer is trying to push the pot to the A8 but for some reason the other 2 players objected so she called the floor. SMH

Trust me, new guys: you do NOT want your name tied to your employer's name on these forums. Every time you say something controversial (politics, etc), or even something stupid, people will equate your employer with your comments, and your employer won't like that.

If you two English guys want to swap that info via PM, you should be OK.

Do you work in poker environment ? (I see from another post you talk about dual skilled poker TG dealers .... but I am curious about a real poker environment).

Poker rooms operate fundamentally differently then a TG for one important reason. Keeping a empty pit game open makes sense because at any moment a player may come and play. In poker you need multiple players. 10 players in the PIT may be playing at 10 BJ tables and each may want to be alone. That doesn't happen in poker. If you have 10 poker deadspreads you are probably wasting labor.

Well my room as pretty well known and understood policies about how the EO process operates. Our DC's may have discretion about whether to EO or not ...... but there are policies in place dictating who it is that EO's (there is a small amount of judgment for them to exercise for avoiding overtime issues)

I agree that the most important reason for an EO to the company is to save labor costs. But I can't agree that notion has gone out the window. There is a second reason which unfortunately todays management types (many of whom have never dealt) tend to overlook. Tips not only benefit the dealers .... they benefit the company. They allow the company to recruit a retain employees who receive a higher wage than the company is forced to pay out. EO's keep the tip rate up (in pooled environments this easily seen .... but in unpooled environments it is equally true).

I agree that many dealers feel an EO is an entitlement. And I certainly wish that dealers never had to be forced out .... but in reality that is often the case (usually this is caused by poor scheduling ... but sometimes by unexpected circumstance)


Now anyone who has worked in a scheduling environment would understand the following:

Really? I'll be sure to mention that to my scheduling people..... because thats not how they operate.

or spend a small amount on an investigator and weed out the 90% of them who abuse FMLA intermittent leave

The different dealers part is not so much a poker issue.

agreed but many policies set by management aggravate this.

I agree it is not an easy job. (scheduling correct games is a pit issue though)

I suspect that we use this language differently. In a poker environment a short string is caused by too many dealers. an EO helps alleviate this.

If we have an incompetent dealer in the Big Game its because an incompetent manager hired them. I really get the sense that you are not overly familiar with the pure poker environment. Even if you have to keep a dealer out of a particular game .... in any room of any size that is an easy workaround. But with poker dealers vastly outnumbering poker dealer jobs you shouldn;t have this problem

Notice that EO is the only one of those things on your list within control of management. If an EO is the problem it just means that management made a mistake. But more often then not the real mistake was the scheduling.

That is the employees problem not managements. If an employee wants to give up their FT status why not let them?

EO list doesn't have to be first come first serve. I have heard of lotteries, and people getting preference on their friday, as well as other systems.

I was one of these. Until I got FT. The reason was I had to have two part time jobs. Of course they were a hassle to juggle so I often had to try to EO. Once I got FT I quit the second job and I rarely EO.

Well my place seems to have this under control now.

Actually in my place one needs to average 30 hrs a week over a quarter so that average would meet our threshold.

Our place tracks closely for the opposite reason, we have a rule that an on call employee who makes hours for two consecutive quarters gets full time status and this is carefully guarded against in the poker room.

My experience in casinos here is we have been operating that way for a long time.

Yep, I thought so. I'm not dropping any information that would lead me to be found out who I work for. Ty for confirming.

My wife is not a poker dealer, but rather a nurse, but they also have EO.

They do the person that hasn't had one for the longest gets first dibs thing, and it seems to work well.

Also, they count an EO towards hours when figuring FTE. I don't understand why it wouldn't count, after all, it is excused.

I can only speak for myself...the only negative that I see with it is that when your are looking at candidates for FT or dual-rate, it is usually preferable to pick the type of people who want to work. People who sign the EO list every day do not generally come across as that type.

Other than that, like others have posted in this thread, EOs are good for the company and I don't see any problem with it!

actually the guy signing the eo list is often the better employee .... willing to work or go gives flexibilty

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I was going to point this out for jsplit and you beat me to it. But I'll elaborate.

Most Vegas poker rooms run with about 80% of the dealers working part time. The casinos don't want to pay benefits, so they don't. Which means a large fraction of Vegas poker dealers work two jobs. It's a racket. The employees often work more than 40 hours a week, but because they do it at two companies they don't get the gravy.

But that also means dealers often have two 8-hour shifts scheduled in a day, sometimes several days in a row as they are scheduled for 30 hours a week at both jobs. They survive by EO'ing, exactly as PS states, since the rooms always over-schedule.

As well, many poker rooms schedule dealers based on their daily tournaments. 3pm tournament starting means they need 5 more tables open, but only for the first 90 minutes, then 4 tables, then 3, then 2, then 1. So you bring in 6 dealers at 11am, and if the tournament only gets 3 tables you can let 2 EO immediately, but as the tourney winds along you let dealers go one by one. 3pm tournament needs another 6 dealers, so a new group of part-timers show up for that, and again, they EO as they are no longer needed (potentially before they even sit down). And you repeat again at 8pm and 11pm, but add a couple full time dealers at 7 or 8pm who need their 32 hours a week--you'll need 'em for the cash games that grow every evening.

Poker rooms in Vegas survive by the EO system. It's a big part of what lets them abuse the staff by keeping most dealers part time.

I am very familiar with this model, and it works well in a non-tipping culture. However, as a supporter of poker dealers keeping their own tips, I've often wondered how it could be implemented in the US for a dealer who deals TG for the first 4 hours of the shift and poker for the next 4.

Have you come across a fair solution in this case?

In your example, the poker room doesn't have deadspreads because those 10 extra poker dealers were never in the poker room, they were still in the casino dealing BJ. The dealers are TG dealers first, and poker dealers second, because the poker room is now a small part of the casino as a whole (like the craps pit).

Think about it, what could be better than sending your noon dealers out to deal BJ after the tournament tables start to break? Then you can bring them back 4 hours later when the room starts to get busy. Of course the casino knows that, so they have added additional staff to their 5 pm shift to cover the BJ tables those dealers will have to leave.

Of course it still requires good forecasting of demand for the poker room, but it is a much more efficient model for the casino as a whole. Like I've said above though, if there is anyone in the US doing this I'm curious how they handle the tips (short of including poker in the casino pool).

That makes sense.


Uh... So If a dealer always signing the EO means he's a better employee? How is that consider as willing to work?

As for as giving flexibility, they don't need to sign the EO at all. They can just wait for the FO imo. Wouldn't you say?

Because signing the EO is simply volunteering to leave ... its not actaully walking out. The guy signing the EO list is the guy who showed up to work but said .... hey if you don't need me I'm good with being sent home.

(Now the guy who bugs the DC for an EO is another issue)

Forceing Dealers out is bad for employee morale. Think about it. You are the business ..... you want to send an employee home to save on labor costs ..... you can force someone out (now you have an unhappy employee) or you can send home a volunteer (now you have two happy employees .... the guy going home and the guy who gets to stay). Both options have the equal savings for you ..... which is better?


I floored in a room with horrendous scheduling. I had to send dealers home very early almost every day.... I hated having to force people out. many of these people are struggling to get by on a part time job. So if someone wants to leave ..... they are making things easier for me and better for the people who wanted to work.

I don;t have much experience with this model ... but my weekend of dealing poker to players who usually had been dealt to by pit dealer (story was posted above) was pretty much spent listening to the players complain about the usual dealers. They were begging us to stay on ..... why because we were poker dealers first ...... and there may be some people out there who can go both well .... but apparently its not common.

And pretty much when I am told of places where poker is being dealt by dealers who are "TG dealers first" I am hearing complaints about the quality of the poker dealing. I think TG dealing and poker dealing are different enough that many of the people who have the characteristics that make them good at one ..... are not cut out for the other (I am certain there is some number of people who can do both well ..... but I suspect its a small number).


And yet still there will be days when their will be too many employees and it will make sense to send people hiome early to save costs (After all many of the times that poker room is dead will coincide with times that the casino is dead). And while TG deadspreads make more sense than poker deadspreads .... there is still a point where it is better to send people home then keep open another pai gow poker deadspread.

Truth to that. I'm a pretty good poker dealer, but I'm a terribly mediocre pit dealer. I just cannot relate to people looking for patterns at baccarat.

Poker and pit games are far more similar than dissimilar if you're comparing them to everything else in the world. But within the narrow framework of gaming, they are polar opposites in almost every regard. And with so many poker rooms and so many trainers not having been trained themselves by specialized poker people, many of the nuances that make for a great poker dealer are being lost.

My wife is also a nurse and I am familiar with the system. They dont call it EO, it is called "No Pay", which is more truthful. They staff for full capacity, and when there are empty beds, not as many are needed, so those who volunteer off are given that first. No volunteers then they are mandated off, and they keep logs of that to keep it as equal as possible. If they have been full for a long time, plenty of people are looking for a break and volunteer, but if it has been slow for a while, then they are looking at the logs to see who has the fewest no pay hours and they are mandated off.

They know the system however, and if they are regularly having someone have to take a no pay, then she will volunteer for nights that she would rather have off, then that keeps her hours on par with others, so she is less likely to be mandated off on times she would rather be at work. The logs also reset every quarter to zero for everyone.

Thanks for the explanation psandman. Makes sense.

You mentioned you were/is a floor, what would you say the chances of part-timers being promoted to FT now, considering Obamacare and the economy in general? My friends said there's no way FTers will leave and management won't bother promoting PT to FT any time soon.

Would you say things will pick up for PTers soon or it won't happen for a long time?

Also, some of my friends were debating they wanted to be Pit dealers and some wanted to be poker dealers.

The argument was that pit dealers income is consistent compare to poker dealers. Poker dealers income is inconsistent due to the days/shift they work on. Would you say that is true Psandman?

Were. I am dealing exclusively now.

All my time in the business has been in Vegas. I do not know how things work in other markets ..... but for at least the past 10 years in Vegas casinos have already been operating under primarily part time labor for the reason of avoiding paying for health insurance. Obamacare doesn't change anything structural in that regard. (However the increase in costs will probably exacerbate the situation).

It has picked up. I know one part time dealer who went to the exchange website filled in his information and was found to be eligible for medicaid. So now you can get welfare.

The consistency issue in the pit depends on how they split. If there is a week long split, then it doesn't matter which days or shifts you work, you all get the same hourly. But from what I know out here some places do daily splits. So the toke pool for Saturday is divided up by the dealers who dealt on saturday. So the days you deal does affect your pay. And some may be splitting by the shift.

keep in mind that consistency works both ways. The dealers working swing shifts on weekends are subsidizing the dealers working day shift in the middle of the week. Which is terrific is you are the day shift dealer in the middle of the week but not so terrific if you are the swing shift dealer Saturday night.

as for poker. If you can get a job somewhere that has business when you are working it probably doesn't matter much what day or shift. The problem is when you get stuck in a shift that doesn;t have any business. (if the room gets 10 games saturday swing shift. And 5 games on Tuesday day shift ... you are probably looking at similar money ... simply because there are probably twice as many dealers on the busier shift ... so in the end you get the same amount of dealing time.

Hate to intrude in the thread, but I wonder if the uniqueness of being a poker dealer comes from poker traditionally having been self-dealt.

This is a guess, but I would expect it's because in beginning, when poker moved off the road and into casino's, the poker room was owned/managed by an outsider who somehow struck a deal with the casino. They would hire their guys to run the room, maybe deal, etc. somehow the casino got a share too.

It was a separate business, with separate employees, and the model has just never changed. It's now owned by the casino, but the poker employees were never integrated.

*Again, just a guess based on some memories of articles (or Johny Hughes rants) that I read.

If you read his question as asking about why the culture is so different, then i think that sounds plausible.

But if you read is question as asking about why it is that dealing the games is so different I think its inherent in the difference between house banked games and player against player games. The dealer has a fundamentally different role in these situations.

First poker shift in awhile... Hope I don't start dealing single deck blackjack (which we don't have anyway)