So I went to "The Bike" today to play the PLO8 tournament that is part of their "America's Poker Classic" series.

Before the tournament, I was playing the 100-300NL live game which I frequent a lot.

I took a pretty bad beat and through my cards down at the table directly infront of me... No problem, handed my chips over to my neighbor who won the pot.

A few hands later, after the flop and a large bet was put out, I threw the cards towards the muck while I was getting up from the table to take a breather... The cards did not go off the table, the cards did not go over the betting line for those in seats 2 / 3... I was in seat 7... The cards landed near / around the muck...

I come back and a floor man approaches me as soon as I sit down and asks me to go talk to him... I picked up the chips I had left and went to the cage to cash out... He then approached me at the cage and says "Well, if you are going to just cash out and leave I wont bother talking to you about the situation then."

I then said "I am going to play the tournament no reason to have a conversation"...

He followed me out of the royal section, and started asking my name and introduced himself to me... (I generally do not play at the casino this early (it was almost 3PM)... He told me that he wanted to pull me aside while security overlooked the tape to make sure I did not hit the dealer with my cards...

Now I know I did not intentionally throw the cards at the dealer and threw them at the muck so was like what ever, nice to meet you, see ya...

I went into the tournament, won my first pot too (hehe)...

Then [name removed] the tournament director (who is a great guy and have always been supportive of him and the bike) approached me and said (I think the name is [name removed]) that the Poker Director wanted to talk to me...

The DC asked if my name was __________ and I said Yes, he then told me... "We reviewed the video and if you were still playing the cash game we would be asking you to leave the casino for the night, but since you are playing the tournament, you can play and then leave."

I then said to him, "Well, can I get a refund I would prefer to leave."

He said Yes, so I got my refund and proceeded to leave...

I then decided to be more of a PITA because I think it is absurd all the dealer abuse I have seen and they are picking on me... I wait to see him and the floor man and asked them to validate my valet parking slip...

Anyway, long story short, after talking more with the original floor man about the situation... he said... "The video clearly shows you were turning away from the table at the same time as throwing your cards in."

Thats TURNING AWAY and throwing my cards in not Directly at the dealer!

Now... During WOTG I was playing 6/12 O8 and Kato Kaelin just happened to be at the table. He went through nearly 3 racks of green chips ($600) and started throwing a hissy fit, punching the table and mumbling profanities' even got up and clinched his fists and went to punch a cocktail table that had some racks on top until I said "Dude thats gonna hurt dont do it" and then punched the table (pretty damn hard) again... This after throwing the cards at the dealer and they even went off the table onto the floor... He just got a warning from the floor person even after using violence towards the table and the chip racks that did nothing to him, and throwing cards DIRECTLY and INTENTIONALLY AT the dealer also resulting in landing on the floor...

AT THIS SAME GAME, this 60 year old woman yelling f*** and s*** to her self and telling insults to the dealer after loosing pots THREW her cards directly at the dealer... This time she was asked to sit out for 15 minutes... SIT OUT for 15 MINUTES for throwing the cards DIRECTLY at the dealer and HIT the dealer INTENTIONALLY...


So why pick on me to the point to ask me to leave for the night when:

#1 - Did not thow the cards with intent to hit the dealer
#2 - Show any anger or disrespect towards the dealer
#3 - Use any profanity or even say a single word at the table or towards floor personal
#4 - People doing worse just got asked to sit out for 15 minutes

I used to frequent the bike very regularly, I used to tip very well since being a former dealer in both live games and tournaments at the bike...


At this point, I am not sure when I will if ever return to the bike to play an event or even live games... After being asked to leave for something that was nothing like the situations above that I described that were disciplined to a much lesser extreme, I am very insulted...

Any chance you asked these questions to the manager (in a non-confrontational, polite way)?

I could be wrong, but it seems like they have a bigger chance of making it right than anyone on 2+2.

I did...

But he was stuck on the idea that I threw them "AT" the dealer intentionally...

I am not really expecting anything to come of this post... thought I would share my experience...


On a side note... Went to commerce afterwards to play their little daily tournament... 4 people all in, AA, KK, AQ, QJ... K on the flop... guy with aces kept yelling F___ why cant I hit a Two outer... F that F that blah blah blah... and SMACKED his few remaining chips down on the table...

floor man standing rite next to him, didnt say anyhing... I gave the floor man a long stare, and he told the guy to keep it down...

no penalty no nothing...

then the guy who had the aces proceeded to wipe the blood off his cards because he cut himself when slamming the chips down, it took me 3 times asking the floor man to change the deck before he grabbed them while the dealer was boxing the cards...

what a day...

Liability issue, if the casino lets you back at the table and you kick the dealers ass, the casino is responsible. The dealer is working and can't leave, and he can sue for being put in a violent environment especially if he complained about it. Emotional abuse is OK it seems, as long as you don't use foul language. Next time let the dealers reach for the cards, why waste your energy throwing cards so far? They have a school now where they teach you how to muck your cards properly. Chris Ferguson is going to teach it, in and out of Prison.

I understand that... but as the floor man said, He could not say I threw them directly at the dealer...

I agree 100% that if I intentionally threw them at the dealer they could ask me to leave for the day / bar me what ever... but I did not...

Ill check with Chris, see if he can help me with my mucking ability

Up to this point by your own description the only rude behavior was by you. The Bike day staff looks like they're doing a first class job so far.


You make no mention of an apology for possibly throwing your cards and possibly hitting the dealer and from the tone (especially the part I bolded) of the above segments it seems safe to assume you weren't apologetic in manner in any of the above conversations.


The Bike staff seemed to handle this perfectly so far. I know [name removed]; he's about as good as it gets when it comes to shift managers. So he/they reviewed the tape and saw something that wasn't right. They wanted to give you the minimum penalty and gave you almost a full range of options (except you can't play cash that night). What could be more fair?


Perhaps the video showed more. So far I see nothing but courteous treatment by the Bike staff.


So in another game on another day or shift they weren't as consistent in enforcement regarding controlling behavior of a customer. That's not good but not really an excuse for your own behavior. The fact that on other days or shifts things aren't enforced as well is a problem in most clubs; sometimes there's a reason (that I don't necessarily agree with). In Kato's case perhaps they gave more slack to a live one. Or perhaps they like "C list" celebrities.


They saw something on the tape. They responded with the minimum possible penalty under the circumstances. Yeah, they should be consistent but I know Mark and he would be among the first to argue for more consistency. He simply has to work in a sometimes chaotic, politically insecure environment and do his best. Then he goes home and roots for the MF New York Yankees so in that regard he is a POS


Perhaps you remember me since I used to work at the Bike as a lead prop and no limit host (from 2001 to 2005). Sometimes it amazed me that the biggest problems with behavior came from off duty dealers and/or floor staff.


I think you get insulted far too easily.

I did apologize. I never raised my voice or treated the floor or dealer staff with disrespect.

Our conversation went back and forth about the video and exactly what they say. And it took a while to get them to say I did not look to intentially throw the cards at the dealer.

I agree the staff is usually really courteous and reasonable in their decisions and they are usually spot on.

I just in short. Don't understand why people who chuck cards directly at dealers and use profanity and disrespect towards them get asked to step away for 15 minutes and they ask me to leave for throwing cards not intentionally at the dealer.

I had a different intent.

Of course the people at the table, 4 were on the dealers side.

And to give you an idea of this table..... I was on the BB with 83o limped in pot... flop two pair and check, button makes it 35, I stop and think if I want to put anymore than my 3$ into it to loose to a bigger two pair.... I call.... Check it down the rest of the way. Guy gets pissed when I cracked his kings.... and says to me... "u idiot how you call my raise preflop with that"

I sat there quietly as I remember it being a limped pot that the small blind couldn't even figure out if he got the proper change for his 5 and we all counted 12 in the main....

Idiots.... would have loved to stay in that game haha. ..

Mods you can go ahead and delete this thread...

I was just sharing an experience... not searching for any form of compensation / justification / bulling or anyhing...

delete thread...

Quite frankly, anything that looks like dealer abuse should be reacted to and handled professionally by the room supervisors.

Without accusing you of actually abusing a dealer, it sounds like that is exactly what happened.

I'm impressed at how nice you described them being since they were asking you to leave.

Sorry no one agreed with you that you were wronged.

But that's B&M, not much slack is cut around here.

Take it as a cheap lesson.

Personally, if it was as described then yeah....you got the short end of the stick.

I think you should have talked to the floor when they wanted to. You might have been able to resolve the whole thing quickly.

The poker director did give me the option to stay and play the tournament and leave when done. And I am welcome back I assume since they only said I had to leave for the day.

Well see if an when I decide to go back. Commerce is just a little closer afterall.

Its all good. Don't really care anymore. Just wanna make money.

No, no, no! This thread can't be deleted! Just reading it made me feel like a fly on the wall watching as [name removed] made his decision regarding how to handle the rather routine situation. Plus I put at least fifteen minutes into my response! Lock it if you must but please don't delete!

ha! Sorry it took you so long for your response

I just felt kind of shat on... I could have understood him asking me to sit out till the dealer changed and go out of the room till then... but to completely leave...

Yeah I know it is different game / different day with the other situation, I do not expect any special treatment...

But I do know I did not intentionally throw the cards at the dealer... and the floor man even said I didnt throw them at the dealer... just threw them too "fast"

Its a poker room, people are going to throw cards... Some at dealers, some into the muck...

I may just move them infront of my stack and say "I fold" next time I go there...


I am trying to think if I know you... Did you work at Crystal Park after 2005?

Pretty sure some Bike staff will see this Rant and lets just say this will not help your cause even if your kind of being nice about it, just bringing unwated attention to the Bike.

good! they need some attention...

Cool thread; really like your attitude. [name removed] was just doing his job and the the Bike staff tries to keep things low key. Go back if you like the Bike. Regarding how you'll be treated realize that most who work in this business have no big problem with someone who at most gets only slightly out of line once in a while. People like Mark realize it's poker, not church.


Never worked there. I played the weekend tournaments for profit and relation once in a while. Also dropped in to see GI which insprired me to write this old rant regarding the LA drop.

Haven't been playing B&M much. Just found out GI from the link passed away a while back. Funny thing was he wrote a few obits for departed poker players on rec.gambling.poker. He told me he had a rough draft of mine already written. Class guy.

is that a sarcastic like my attitude? so hard to tell online....

I miss the Crystal Park 10 rebuy shove fests... I profited my share of those as wel... still trying to figure out if I know you... I know a couple of Ricks... Havent been to Crystal since they stopped their tourney's... I really hope the "Tournament Directors" ((since I learned I cant use names in these threads)) are doing well, they were really nice people...

on my way to read your thread!

haha nice read!

I do miss that place sometimes... It was fun and not really a place to think...

Are they still even running games at all? I used to go there and just play 3card poker until the tournaments would start...

my avatar are chips from there

Ill never forget the time this scrawny kid slow rolled me there...

Pot wasnt that big, but I put out a small bet on the river... he sat there thinking and thinking... and finally called... I turned over my hand, he contemplated, waited.... and waited.... and turned over the nut straight...

I said, thanks for the slow roll what took you so long... his reply...

"Man this is Compton best watch out I can do what I wants..."

haha!


On a serious note... who was GI that passed away? I probably know him since I spent most every Friday & Saturday night there...

oh yeah and I dont want to bump your old thread...

but I was playing the 200NL at Commerce today, no flop / even if chop / they drop $1 for Jackpot / $1 for house!

Atleast the Bike only drops $1... And you can play the $100-$300 with 2/3 blinds and they just drop $4 / $1... (or did they move it up to $5 / $1 I dont really pay much attention to the drop anymore...

I'm impressed with OP's new look at the situation (as opposed to the comment he made asking the thread be deleted).

These truly are learning experiences and when we have them, actually learning from them and growing makes us better people and players.

Welcome to B&M SuitedJunk, hope to see more from you. Not everyone can take the treatment here and grow.

ridiculous, really. I play as a reg at the bike/commerce and throwing cards INTENTIONALLY at the dealer is common and not even close to what goes on unpunished in dealer abuse...

I may go play there tonight... if I do, ill probably try to find the floor people and talk to then about it.... tell them I can understand why they asked me to leave even though I don't agree...

Good tourney tonight there if anyone interested. :-)

GI was Gary Ilson. He propped in Gardena then at Hawaiian Gardens then Crystal Park. AFAIK he didn't post on 2+2 but I did find a link to three obits he posted on rec.gabling.poker

When CP had the big weekend re-buy tournaments a couple years back he would be in the poker room propping until about 10:00 pm or so. He was a short athletic guy with a trim beard and dark, slightly balding hair. He had the perfect attitude and nice smile. Before Hustler was built there was the El Dorado Club on the same lot. Over an after play drink Gary told me many a story about the old Gardena days. I think that was when he told me he already had a draft of my obit.

In at least one of the linked obits is a comment by Barbara Gallamore. She was a middle limit legend in LA and passed on a couple years back. We need an obit section here on 2+2 for the old timers like me.

Actually the LA area clubs generally don't do much monitoring of these threads (which IMO is a big mistake). When I worked at the Bike I did but already had a previous posting history and reputation.

A year or so after I left the Bike I ran into this thread describing what seemed like a horrific ruling at the Bike. I was back East visiting family and when I returned played the Bike and talked to the guy with the set and got the whole story and posted an update. Meanwhile the thread had gotten thousands of hits and the Bike's top section reputation had to be hurt.

One lesson to learn from this is how important mechanics are. Just as it should take only one adverse floor ruling to cause people to stop shenanigans with respect to betting such as making forward motions with chips one does not intend to bet or string betting (unless they are angle shooters), the real lesson here is to fold by the book, i.e., move your cards forward over the betting line, perhaps with a verbalization that you are folding. If you don't throw your cards, nobody will ever accuse you of throwing them at the dealer.