Sitting in a cash game UK I've raised pre flop. Button calls then BB calls. Just as the flop is being dealt Button bets the flop blind just under pot size. On the flop all I have is a gutshot and would have continued to try and take it down or get a call and take it from there.

With this guy betting out of turn this has killed my action and I am informed that his bet will stay in regardless of my action turning my hand into fit or fold type hand. I cant call for the gutshot and I cant raise enough really to get him to lay down and a lot of the time I make money from getting him to fold to the continuation.

What's the general rule here?

UK makes all the difference.

In many US rooms, with RRROP, the action would only stand if it was checked around to the BTN.

Anywhere, it should come with a warning and penalties if repeated.

As played... you're best call. If it's not his usual style, I'll give him credit for a big pair and move along. If he does this often with success, then you can expand his range and choose your path.

If people wAnt to dark pot out of turn without seeing the flop, not only shluld it be allowed but strongly encouraged. That's all there really is to it.

Agree with Jon Locke.

Thank him for almost surely saving you money.

I played at an underground game where a LAG to my left kept beating me into the pot. It bugged me at first, till I adapted: i started paying attention and just x/f whenever I saw him loading up and bluff-stealing when he wasn't. That was a happy session.

But lets say I raise with KQ and get called by 99 The flop comes A103

Usual situation I raise pre Villain calls. I bet flop villain generally lets it go. I win. Assume he called with an ace and elects to call I now get to see a turn card with which I could out draw him for the price of my continuation bet.

This situation I raise pre Villain calls. Villain out of position leads blind now the decision is mine. If I put him on an ace which of course I wouldn't know I would think I'd be looking for a gut shot and should I fold I don't get to get lucky on the turn. If I put him on a PP I'd still be behind and need to hit. I am being put to a decision when it should be the other way round.

Of course if I flop well this is great but how often will that happen? If he flops well and I miss he has lost out again that is great. But I want to be picking up money in pots when neither of us are flopping well and this opportunity is being taken away from me by his out of turn action.

I could call light post-flop because of his blind bet but is that the correct way to look at the situation.

You're upset because he took away your bluff opportunity. If you think he's doing it with 99, then shove. Now you have taken it back.

Yeah reads help. If he keeps doing it bluff raise.

However since he's gonna get a penalty for this, just fold this hand readless with little equity. This isn't a spot that will happen much even with this guy because he will have to stop or get thrown out of the game.

If you think that he is getting an advantage, you don't understand position.

Just to be clear your upset that your opponent is betting the pot with 99 on the A-10-2 flop vs your Preflop open?

Blind bettor is not gaining an advantage, but another player may be, so it is still unfair. In this case it actually may screw in the BB. IMO should never be allowed in a multiway pot. Headsup I don't care.

Also, best rule is not that the bet stands if action does not change, but the bet is given back and held meaningless. If left to stand in multiway pot it can also help a 2nd player at the expense of a 3rd.

A totally reasonable play against bad short-stacked players.

In PLO and sometimes NL you'll find rec players who botch preflop badly enough that they get to the flop OOP HU with SPR<1. Obviously position is irrelevant at this point, you're going to shove any flop. Sometimes if I'm bored I'll just skip the formalities. It saves a few seconds of tedium.


Once though I ran into a very self righteous donk who somehow believed he had options and I was taking those away. Called the floor and spent ten minutes yammering about his last $80 like it mattered at all when the pot was already $250 and his opponent obviously had Aces.

Proceed with caution, ******s will be ******s, etc.

It doesn't screw anybody, it helps them all, obviously some more than other. This is a very simple concept, people putting in lots of postflop without looking at the flop is a good thing. Whenever I see somebody bet out of turn and another player play say wait I haven't done anything yet, I can't help but laugh.

JL, do you really just think anyone should be allowed to bet out of turn at any time? Using your logic even a non-blind out of turn bet doesn't harm anyone other than the bettor. I strongly disagree, but even if it were true it would soon lead to what I would consider to be a ridiuclous game if people were constantly betting out of turn.

You are correct, but OP's complaint has nothing to do with the third player and would exist even in a heads-up hand, which makes it a silly thing to be upset about.

If you want to play in a game where you have to bet blind anytime you are in position in a multiway pot, I have a couple home games that you are invited to.

From a rules perspective, sure, you can tell players not to do it. I don't think it merits a penalty. Its almost always an honest mistake since, regardless of who it unfairly advantages, it always disadvantages the person that has now acted blind. This is never really an angleshoot unless it comes from a team, which is then a different problem.

It helps them all in the sense that there is blind money inflating the pot. It doesn't necessarily help them all that a player is betting out of turn. It may help each of the them or it might benefit one of them over the other.

This is not an infrequent issue I have to explain to players who decided they are going to bet blind preflop out of turn. Listen .... I have no problem with you betting blind. You may never look the cards if you want ..... but you must do it in turn.

Betting blind isn't a problem. Betting out of turn is. (unless you are headsup).

If we are the pre flop aggressor why do we continue bet when we miss the flop?? We are trying to pick up the pot when we both miss or when the opponent also finds an unfavourable flop. If he doesn't give up we can then improve.

Now when he bets blind out of turn he picks up the money if we can't call when we miss.

Why would you ever call? Raise or fold.

I am going to ask a tangent question here...played a .25/.50 home game tonight...only 1 straddle allowed, player on button has right to overrule any other straddle. In this hand, button straddles, I am in BB, UTG raises to $2.75 before I act. I point it out to him and call for $.50 more. He wants to raise slightly bigger. Protest begins. I end up leaving because the debate got so heated. I said that the when the player bets $2.75 out of turn, it has to stay in the pot. However, once I call, it is his turn to act for the first time and he can raise to whatever he wants. Note: This same player bet out of turn earlier and when someone raised he pulled it back. I told him this was wrong and explained that it has to stay in to prevent angling. He eventually agreed with me. So in this case he is arguing that UTG player can only bet whatever he put out (and it's not clear whether he agrees a call would be ok)...thoughts?

He can change his out of turn action only if action in front of him changes. You calling didn't change the action.

Depending on stack sizes I would definitely consider flatting here. In the above example it is very hard for villain to continue if he has indeed 99 on ATx flops. This would be floating out of position and with large enough stacks definitely profitable. He would often check behind turn and fold to a river bet.

Since I would only raise a very small range here, I can represent way more by calling (once again dependent on stack sizes).

@OP: Do you also hate players who call your preflop raise and donk 100% of time into you on flops? Not trying to offend you here, but it seems that you play a style that is heavily based on cbetting flops. If a guy would do that to me repeatedly, I would definitely adjust to him. You can pick way more spots to bluff, because you SAW the flop and still called. If he is too short to outmaneuver him, you should consider not raising in the first place.

I don't see how that can be right..So I can bet pot out of turn, then see how he reacts to that on the flop lol? How can you be allowed to act out of turn? That money has to stay in the pot, which he originally didn't agree with. In a casino, I tend to agree, but in a home game...for example, I played a 1/3 NL cash game hand where I flopped the nut flush draw. The player to my right flopped the nuts. I bet out of turn, so he flat called an early position raise. I said I didn't want to change my action to be fair. The table said I could do whatever I wanted. I decided to keep it the same so there was no angling.

I think acting out of turn is a common enough occurence that you guys should have a rule in place ahead of time. There are multiple options for what rule you could use .... and I'm not going to head back into that debate here but definately its something you should address ahead of time understanding that different people have different expectations.

There are many rules for this, and many schools of thought.

The standard rule:

Action out of turn is binding unless there's an intervening raise. Calls, checks, and folds are not considered changing action, and therefore bind the out of turn player to his action. If someone raises, then the out of turn raiser can take back the entire bet. (A far less standard rule is that out of turn action is never binding no matter what. I personally prefer this rule, but I'm in the minority.)

The "angle" here is creating a situation where you gain advantage by hiding your cards, or making an ambiguous action, then when someone bets behind you, you say that you haven't acted, you put out a big bet, and now the out of turn player is forced to sacrifice what he put in the pot. That's a bad rule, and that's why it's not the standard rule.

If someone is habitually acting out of turn, you deal with him as a special case. A catch-all rule only punishes the innocent.