You must have stopped reading at RLs post because wsop and tda clearly do not agree with you on this.

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Here's the wording from Hoyles. I bolded the part about folding, and notice that it specifically states that you can fold at any time. This contradicts those who claim that folding was never a valid option when not facing a bet. It clearly is, just a dumb one. It seems to me that this notion of it affecting further action has led to the various tournament rules makers deciding to specifically make it against the rules. But any action by any player affects future action, so that's hardly a reason alone to prevent it. Every player acting after the fold is making their decisions with the same information. So according to Hoyle, if a player simply wants to fold in turn he can.

"Call. Match the current highest bet in the pot. This is referred to as staying in the hand.

Raise. Match the current highest bet in the pot, then add more money to the pot to become the highest bet in the pot. Each player must at least match (call) this bet to stay in. The Hoyle Casino raise rule is: in all betting intervals, if more than two players are betting, there is a limit of three raises total.

Check.You are permitted to check if no player before you has opened with a bet.

When you check, you stay in the hand without having to call or raise. Each player after you can also check until one of the players makes an actual bet.

You can also drop out of the pot by folding. When you fold, you turn in your hand and lose any chips you have added to the pot for that hand.You can fold at any time.

However, it is recommended that you only fold if you don’t want to call a bet (i.e., don’t fold if you can check)."

Screwed up "online" in my post, but you can do it online so it's not like there is a monopoly on the rules on that. Actually forgot about the fact that it is a tournament in which case I understand it more. In cash games I think I am 100% right, in tournaments I can understand either way and I wouldn't protest either floor decision.

Please let us know when u find a cardroom that uses this rule set...it is very vague

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All you have to do is look at a site like BCP ( all WPN sites) that allow people to skip BB to know websites have extremely lazy rules

And yes its much more inforced in tourneys

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And that is the problem. It doesn't benefit the player doing it. If the player benefited from doing it ... it would be fair for him to do it. Even if it didn't benefit him .... if he reasonably expected it to benefit him it would be fair. But when a play intentionally acts in a manner not intended to benefit him and it may benefit another player is when we have a problem.

It doesn't benefit the player to show his cards while folding with active players behind him. But that's not allowed because it affects action.

It's up to the house if folding is a legal option or not.

You argument is: "It must be legal to fold to no resistance because it is legal to fold to no resistance and step away."

Well, it is not legal to fold to no resistance and step away. I don't believe you really think that (A and B) must be legal if either A or B is legal.

If he did it the first time, give him a break. Warn him if he does it again, its a dead hand.

Cash ... Discouraged but 'allowed' ... changes action unfairly to players left behind. Plenty of cases where I bet out into a hand when a player I didn't want to c/r me open folded .. green light!!

Tournament ... Not allowed and 'may' be penalized. GL

Muckleshoot Casino, in Auburn WA.
I spent a happy couple of hours sitting next to someone at the 4-8 LHE table (shut up, I'm still learning the game) who would fold when he could have checked. I think he was not used to playing live (from other comments he made). Player was reminded by the dealer and the self-appointed table captain that he could just check, rather than fold, but he wouldn't take the advice.

Please let me know when you find a card room that actually penalizes players in a cash game for "checking out" because it's against the rules. But my point was that some state that the option to fold not facing a bet has never been an option in poker, and it has. That some tourney rule sets added it as an offense is fine, but I haven't seen a room yet that actually kicks cash game players out for it. It seems more of an etiquette issue than a hard rule, IME. Though I'm sure there are rooms somewhere that specifically state in their rules it is not allowed.

I agree cash is a different game. A lot of us have already admitted that, but this thread is a discussion of a tournament rule.

And yes it has been a rule in the past, I dont recall it ever being said that it never was (TIKO), but a majority of legal rooms have a rule set that will say it is against the rules in some form.

I have used the analogy of going 1 mph over the speed limit before. Will you ever get a ticket for it? No never. But that still doesnt mean its not against the law. Some rules exist purely to set an example of proper play, and like speeding, the greater the offense the worse the punishment can be. There are many of these rules that players dont ever think about because offenses are typically small and no penalties are ever given.

I actually have never seen anyone get a penalty for improper fold, but my experience is limited compared to some people here who I am sure have...but again most likely in tournaments only.

Sometimes it can benefit the player to fold out of turn. A drunk whale once folded his big blind out of turn. He was trying to muck Q-5. The dealer pushed his cards back to him instead of mucking them. Flop was QQx. He lost his entire $500 stack to AQ.

His fold would have greatly benefitted him. I have never seen anyone penalized for folding out of turn or "checking out" in either a cash game or tournament. Large sample size.
I have seen the floor ,on occasion, reprimand an offending player.
They usually say "Please don't fold until facing a bet." or "please don't fold out of turn."

FWIW, there's an interesting discussion going on right now in the "POKERSTARS SOFTWARE IMPROVEMENT THREAD" about their decision to disable the open fold function. (I'd give the link, but I don't know how to.)

You should not confuse the fact that rooms to throw people out for doing it in cash games with the idea that it is legal.

Next time the flop is QQ5 and it benefits the player to not being able to fold his BB out of turn. Therefore he wins the AQ guy's entire $500 stack.

If I wasn't clear, after he said "I fold" the big blind realized it was a limped pot and decided to keep his cards. I'm not sure he was completely aware he was saying 'fold' and not 'check'.

The dealer decided to call the floor for a ruling. I went apoplectic (I had folded my hand in the cutoff). I yelled (dealer said "that was yelling?") and screamed and walked out for a smoke while the table waited for the floor. I basically told the dealer he was an idiot, though very politely.

I simply assumed that the floor would let him keep his hand (had he silently thrown his cards in the muck, and the dealer could identify the cards, I believe they would be retrived ... this was my argument). I went apoplectic again when they told me the hand was killed.

Ten minutes later I lost a big hand and lost interest, though there was an attempt to look up tda rules on someone's phone to get a factual answer. I guess the above post is clear that it's a fold whether the bb likes it or not according to multiple American rule sets. As is typical, I am the idiot.

I did telll the dealer I thought I deserved a penalty for my behavior more than the blind deserved to have his hand killed for saying I fold but he just laughed and said if 'that was abusive I'll take it every time.'

I guess I'm not even good at being an ashole.

It didn't benefit him at the time of the fold. What happens after is not the issue.

It would benefit us all to fold the hands we will eventually lose.

In a perfect world, we would chill in the sports book and wait for a pager to vibrate, indicating we should walk to the table now because the dealer will momentarily start dealing a hand that we are going to win.

Saves us all the sitting around and folding.

Quick question. what would happen on the QQ5 flop if the AQ guy was the one who tried to fold out of turn.

Coincidentally Pokerstars has removed the option to fold in tournaments when not facing a bet in the last few days. For me that's fine because I sometimes click on it by accident. Also I checked and in my casino they don't actually allow folding facing no action (in tourneys obviously). Since most of all poker plays isn't live but online that shifts the majority from allowed to not allowed.

Tournament - He has to keep his hand. Conflicted on just making him take the most passive action [Auto check] or giving him all his options.


Cash game - He folds.