Um...

I always ask how much the bet is. Always. Never don't. Always do. I'd also like to think that I'd have noticed it anyway, because I'm always aware of how much someone is playing if they're in a hand with me. So if he started the hand with 7 stacks of red and 4 blacks on top, (I hope) that I'd notice the 2 missing blacks from his stack after his river bet.

That said, I'd think the table would stick up for the caller in this spot and out the guy for being an angler. Hopefully, the floor would rule in the caller's favor.

Not that I don't agree, but in the world we currently live in with verbal AI's and snap calls, this is a tough sell IMO.

There's nothing in OP indicating that villain was hiding chips in his stack. For all we know they were clearly visible, they just weren't when he bet.

For the recored though, dealers and players should be vigilant about telling other players to make the high denom chips clearly visible.

No but they should quiclky move high denom chips into a clearly visible area to avoid this exact situation. Of course, there could be an outside chance this dealer didn't even see the black chips snuck in behind also.

People are being so unrealistic in this thread FFS.

It is super rare to 'always' ask for a count. When someone slides two stacks of red forward, you just call it two hundred. Sneaking extra chips behind a stack is 100% pure shady angle shooting period. Don't care how you dress up that pig, its an angle shot.

And there is a decent chance a good angle shooter can get away with it.

You see, angle shooters eat, sleep, and breath the gray. They understand the gray area of the rules and know just how to interject enough confusion and ambiguity to get their way.

When the floor person comes over for the ruling, the angle shooter knows just how to muddle the facts enough to get his way...

I could see some floor ruling one way and some ruling the other. It all depends on how clearly the situation is explained and how skilled the angle shooter is in manipulated things after the fact.

I agree that the climate of verbal all-ins and snap calls make it more diffilcult. As someone else suggested, how the dealer explains this is going to make a difference.

I would break even with that guy in the parkinglot if he did it to me.

I saw someone try this move when heads-up versus a happy-go-lucky entertainment-seeking donk who was giving a lot of money to the table. Dealer IMMEDIATELY asked the player "Is your bet $200 or $300 (he only tried to sneak one black chip in)." Player, none to happy to be called out on his little angle, said "It's whatever I pushed in", and then dealer grabbed the black chip, pushed it out to the front, and told the other player "Bet is $300 to you". Dealer then politely explained rule to jerk player (as I will explain, I'm fairly sure it was intentional), and player tried to play the "I didn't know" game.

I tipped that Dealer at the end of his shift despite not winning a pot that half-hour, and specifically said it was bcause of how he handled that blatant angle shot. Dealer said thanks, and said yeah, he knew what the douche was doing but had to give him the benefit of the doubt, but knew that he needed to pre-emptively act to avoid pissing off the guy everyone should want kept happy.

Just shows you how short-term people are - guy is willing to try to piss off the donk who just wants to have a good time. Best part of the story is the clueless donk hit his gutshot to beat the jerk's flopped set...although next time it'd be nice if he raises with a hand that could only beat by a higher rivered gut-shot straight.

The reason I am 99% sure it was intentional was that about 3 weeks later at another casino, I saw the player try something similar with tournament chips, and it was even worse because he used two colors that were kind of similar from far away, although nothing came of it because the other player snap folded. I politely went to the floorman and explained what I saw, and used my normal line "maybe it's nothing, but it's something to watch out for, so I felt like I had to say something".

:shrug: I hate angle-shooters.

I don't think the long-term value of having the "clueless donk" in the game is anywhere near $100 to this one individual. Even if the "clueless donk" swears off poker for the rest of his life because of this one $100 angle-shot.

No, but his spewing chips at the table that night might have been. Guy dropped $2500 total to the table. Still no guarantees, so yes, $100 at that point was probably worth it (plus he had already spewed $1000 + whatever of his 3rd buy-in he was in the process of losing, so his staying at that table was only worth another $1500, max, of value to the whole table), so you are correct, but it's just frustrating.

I absolutely love it when this happens. Always brings a big smile to my face.

+1

Large denomination chips must be kept in clear view at all times. This includes during betting. I rule against the obvious angle shot and probably give him a nice lecture, stern warning and 20 minute time out.

AFTER his KITN, of course.

This. I ask for a count of every large bet, every time. More times than I care to remember "accidently" hidden high denomination chips have been found in or behind stacks.

Haha, it's easy to say it's an "obvious angle shot" now, but when you get there and have to make this ruling I guarantee it's not so easy. Like I said before, it's going to be really difficult to determine who is angling when the floor arrives. And like RR said, it's all going to be decided by how the dealer explains it.

If it was a blatant angle, hopefully the dealer conveys that upon arrival, by saying "He bet $600, but when he did it he hid four black chips". Short of that, it's a debacle and a very hard decision for the floor.

Moral of the story? Take your time and ask how much before you make a big call....just to be on the safe side.

RRoP 14.12:

Because the amount of a wager at big-bet poker has such a wide range, a player who has taken action based on a gross misunderstanding of the amount wagered may receive some protection by the decision-maker. A "call" or “raise” may be ruled not binding if it is obvious that the player grossly misunderstood the amount wagered, provided no damage has been caused by that action. Example: Player A bets $300, player B reraises to $1200, and Player C puts $300 into the pot and says, “call.” It is obvious that player C believes the bet to be only $300 and he should be allowed to withdraw his $300 and reconsider his wager. A bettor should not show down a hand until the amount put into the pot for a call seems reasonably correct, or it is obvious that the caller understands the amount wagered. The decision-maker is allowed considerable discretion in ruling on this type of situation. A possible rule-of-thumb is to disallow any claim of not understanding the amount wagered if the caller has put eighty percent or more of that amount into the pot.

Example: On the end, a player puts a $500 chip into the pot and says softly, “Four hundred.” The opponent puts a $100 chip into the pot and says, “Call.” The bettor immediately shows the hand. The dealer says, “He bet four hundred.” The caller says, “Oh, I thought he bet a hundred.” In this case, the recommended ruling normally is that the bettor had an obligation to not show the hand when the amount put into the pot was obviously short, and the “call” can be retracted. Note that the character of each player can be a factor. (Unfortunately, situations can arise at big-bet poker that are not so clear-cut as this.)

Point taken and true. Also the RRoP quote is quite applicable.

"Obvious" comment qualifier: obvious as explained in the OP (tho agreed it might not be so obvious if the dealer doesn't explain it as clearly).

You've really never seen this before? It happens reasonably frequently.

The player in the 3 seat is only obligated to call $200

the rule is posted 2 posts ago; player isn't required to call $200. he can call $600 or fold.

im not sure why you would have to explain yourself, but how about "Because when I win the hand I want to make sure the stacks were not dirty and its actually only 190, instead of 200"

no ones precious feelings are hurt

I've skimmed this thread and am curious: What was the end result in this situation in the actual happenstance? Caller curses, calls floor? Dealer remains non-committal? Table gangs up on DB and stalks him down, mercilessly shoving on him rest of night?

I believe this play depends on house rules ( you should always ask for a count prior to calling a raise) but in most pa and ac casinos you are required to have your larger denomination chips on top and "sneaking" them in behind your raise and not on top will negate the raise unless player announces it. Very sneaky play but around here player would only be obligated to the $200 raise.

I agree. In fact, I was involved in a similar situation in a 2/5 game in AC. a guy had about $200 in red left in front of him, and there was already $200 in the pot. action was to me, i said "all in," thinking it was about a pot-sized bet. he snap called and placed a purple chip that was in his hand on top of his two stacks of red and shoved. the floor ruled that i had to call $700, not $200. he based his ruling on the fact that he had seen the purple chip, the player had it for a little while, and he said it's my responsibility to know all of my opponent's stack sizes.

You got shafted. I would have insisted on the Poker room manager, and then the casino manager, and then Gaming.

Not really. If there's a big chip in play I typically know it. Frankly, I've never seen a place that allows a $500 chip to play in a game with $5 chips. Either way, the debate of this thread is whether that chip was hidden during a bet or not.

The bet you are referring to, player potentially could have seen the chip in the countless hands before. The bet he made is for all his chips, regardless of what the opponent has. He could have just as easily said 200 thinking it would be all-in.

Different scenario's with not enough info.

And as mentioned above, I believe in the OP's case, floor should listen to dealer 100% of the time. Whatever the dealer says I'd have to go with. There is zero way a floor can reasonably determine where the chips were when bet, and in this case you just have to pray the dealer has a memory.

the purple chip had changed hands several times, as many of us were fairly deep. Another player sitting next to me said that he noticed the chip had disappeared, and he was wondering where it went. i don't think the player who had the chip was trying to angle shoot...i think he was just playing with it in his hand at the time. i didn't protest much at all, but i did let the floor know that they ought to initiate a rule requiring large chips to be clearly visible. the hand would've played out the same, as i held AA, and the flop was J 83. My opponent had KQ.

Defining what is in clear view from another player's angle viewpoints can get dicey when it comes to how a bet is put out.

Not sure if this has already been said, but I think a good dealer avoids this by immediately separating chip values. He/she doesn't have to count down the bet, but just separate them out and there should be no problems.

I'd like to punish angle shooters as much as anyone, but I think that's the wrong ruling. The bet was called and it's a player's responsibility to know the amount he/she is calling. Again, a competent dealer makes all the difference here. -imo