Reposted from Encore Boston Harbor thread….

Interesting rules situation at my table for a dealer on her first day at Encore:

Playing 2-5 NL. Board was something like 10-10-7-2 after the turn, two players in the pot with $1500 in there. Both players had about $500 remaining. Player 1 (seat 4) announces all in. Player 2 ((seat 5, who had a bit of an accent) announces “call.” Dealer immediately swipes player 2’s cards into the muck. “Wait I said call!” Table agrees he called, floor called immediately.

Player 1 is angry because he holds 7-7 for a boat. Player 2 is (allegedly) angry because he has no cards and refuses to pay the final bet.

Floor says “I am going to be nice. You have to call 1/3 of the final bet because you did not protect your hand.”

Player 2 repeatedly says “but I have no cards. How can I call? She took my cards when I said call?”

After the debate continues, the floor then says “ok, now you have to pay the full bet.” Player 2 now begs for the 1/3 bet ruling but floor will not relent. “I gave you a break, but you argued.” Floor manager backs up floor and they tell player 2 he will be banned from all Wynn properties and maybe more if he doesn’t pay up.

Eventually player 1 says, “it’s fine if you pay me half the bet.” Player 2 agrees and we move on. Classy move from Player 1 who obviously had the winner. Player 2 never suggested what he held.

Typical ruling, to my knowledge, is that he wouldn't be held to the final bet but P1 would get what was already in the pot. No idea where he got the 1/3 from, and I see no justification for changing it to the full bet just because he didn't immediately agree to pay.

Very odd to 'tax' the Player in this spot for a Dealer error, but once the Floor is called the door is open to the full range of $0 to full price via Rule #1. GL

A lot of blame landing on a dealer who is able to reach, access, and sweep a hand belonging to Seat 5.

I agree.

I’m also bothered that the floor applies some kind of bazaar mentality. We’re not on a game show on TV. If I see something like this happening I’m immediately afraid of arbitrary rulings by this floor.

“Half pot! Half pot! Any takers? Final offer 2/3 pot, final offer! The gentleman in seat 5 looks interested! 80% pot? OK, we have an offer! Going, going, gone to the young lady in seat 9!”

As a floor, I would never mess with “giving someone a break”. If their rules dictate the full pot + call goes to the only player with a live hand, he should follow that rule. Or if he wants to rule 1 it so that the player that had their hand mucked doesn’t pay the last bet, I also think that’s fine. The whole 1/3 or 1/2 or whatever just seems weird to me.

This is definitely weird and concerning. The floorpersons at Wynn Boston Harbor have generally been knowledgeable and reasonable in my experience. This is just wrong.

I don't like any of the responses. I also don't care that the player's cards were unprotected, or that he never claimed what his cards were. The dealer made the mistake and that makes the house responsible.

I doubt it would be resolved that way very often though.

If the cards are retrievable or even semi-retrievable (he tells the floor his cards and they can be easily found on the side of the much closest to the player) then I would try to give the cards back and continue. If they are absolutely unretrievable then I wouldn't make the player with no hand pay the call, but give the pot to the guy with 77.
Not fair to make him call with no cards.

And the dealer fails first day, she goes back to dealer school to learn what "call" means and when to (not) kill a hand.

Dealer screwed up but we play a game with human dealers bc we prefer human dealers. I tried out the automated dealer thing at Excaliber years ago and no one liked it. So Dealer made a mistake, yep, that's what happens. If I'm either player, I'm probably angry in the moment but mistakes are part of being human so I'll get over it.

The floor's error, is outrageous and I'm afraid I would have packed up and walked out with all my chips if forced into that floor's "deal". That guy needs more training or fired. That would have sent me over the edge bc the 1/3rd penalty is just made up nonsense. Either we find the P2's cards and P2 calls, or we consider it a fold and P1 gets the pot.

It is not easy to find classy players like Player 1 nowadays. I even heard some people began asking their money back from other players after losing thousands of dollars and accusing them of collusion!

In this situation I believe there are two options, as stated by others who have posted under this thread:

1. If Player 2's cards are retrievable without any room of doubt, then Player 2 should be making the call.
2. If not, then Player 1 should be taking the pot before the all-in situation.

The problem is, what if Player 2 has pocket tens, giving him quads, and there is no way to retrieve his cards in a trustworthy way? Is he going to lose a $2500 pot because of the dealer's mistake? Or what if Player 2 doesn't have pocket tens, but still claims that he has, knowing his cards are not retrievable?

In such a situation, should Player 1 be given the pot before all-in and Player 2 be compensated by the house?

Why would Player 2 be compensated if there's no way to prove what he held?

Yeah, guaranteed the house isn't going out of pocket for dealer's mistake. Their fall back position is it's always the player's responsibility to protect his hand.

You can say it's "always" the player's responsibility to protect his hand, but no one really means it. If after player 2 said "call", player 1 reached over, took player 1's cards out from under a card protector or pulled them out of the hands of player 2, and then shoved them deep in the muck, I don't think anyone is going to give the pot to player 1. I certainly wouldn't, even if he showed he had quads here.

The player has some responsibility to protect his hand, but he can only do so much. No one is going to expect a dealer to muck his cards right after he said "call". This situation was partially the fault of the player, but mostly the fault of the dealer. The partial punishment of losing the pot so far but missing out on any chance to win the pot (he likely had at least 2 outs) is enough here.

I always mean it.

I have never had a dealer muck my cards.

It almost happened three times when I was in seat 1 but because my hands were squarely on the cards the dealer was unable to remove them. One time I said "nice try" and we both laughed. Another time it was a race to my cards because the dealer had dealt them about halfway between me and him. But because he had to deal all of the other players their cards I was able to start to reach well before he did.

I have seen other players cards mucked by the dealer and in some cases they had the best hand and were livid about the result. Usually they were talking to a waitress while facing a bet.

As bad as what the dealer did here (and the Floor) ultimately the only thing we can control as players is the protection of our hands.

I'm wondering how the dealer was able to collect the cards in the first place.

Saddest dealer hand theft I've seen was at MGM DC. Deaf guy in seat 9 goes AI on river. V in seat 3 leans back, arms crossed, and says call but makes no motion. Deaf guy misunderstands and releases his hand thinking seat 3 folded. Dealer insta-sweeps it into the muck. Deaf guy is happy seeing that $1000 pot, but then dealer shoves the pot to seat 3.

Lots of anger with the deaf guy unable to vocalize intelligible sentences but I'm sure he had AK for broadway. It was a combo of deaf guy error and a couple of errors on the dealer's part. She should have made seat 3 toss in a chip or stack (don't remember the local rule) and even though seat 9 slightly pushed his cards out, the dealer should have known the hand was live.

The floor was very apologetic but the cards were thoroughly mucked before seat 9 protested. seat 9 left angry and nearly in tears. Life ain't fair.

Like Mr. Rick, I've never had a dealer take my cards. I won't let go of them until of them till the pot has been pushed to me. I also try to avoid seats 1 and 9 just to make it easier to avoid that dealer error.

They were laying there unprotected.

Here's my tale of woe - was playing in a tournament at Foxwoods 20 or so years ago. Had won the last pot and was stacking chips in UTG position. Got done and looked for my cards and they were gone. Didn't really have a chance to "protect my hand" Wasn't that big a pot and I was in the 5 seat. Just let it go.

He dealt six more cards after your last card, you had plenty of time to take possession.

Show your proof.

Read the post lol.

He said he won the previous pot and was too busy stacking chips to protect his hand.

That is a classy move. Even better would be to also ask for a rake-free pot imo.

How do you know the dealer dealt six more cards?

Because Anytwo72 was the UTG. It might not have been a full table, but at least a few people should have gotten cards after him.