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1/2 Winstar ruling question 1/2 Winstar ruling question

05-01-2008 , 09:03 PM
Don't stare at you lap.
Stare at the pot or at your opponent's cards/hands/chips.
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05-01-2008 , 09:59 PM
I am a big fan of pushing my cards forward with my tip covering them whether face up or down. This makes it very clear I expect to be pushed the pot and if a problem does arise, my two cards are easily identified.
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05-02-2008 , 12:16 AM
Don't give up your cards until you cash out.

This is a really bad dealer error, though. Not that its your fault, but there really isn't a need to turbo muck your hand into the card pile.
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05-02-2008 , 12:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RR
The timing of this makes a huge difference. The pot is being pushed to you. If the villian with cards left speaks up immediately he gets the pot. If he does not speak up immediately you get the pot. You both have an obligation to protect your hand, but if you have been awarded the pot your obligation has ended.
Im not sure i understand your reasoning here.. from what i understand

1.Hero bets

2.While action is on villan and he is contemplating a call, dealer begins to push pot to hero

3.At some point, hero becomes aware that the pot is being pushed to him, and mucks his cards.

4. At some point later than that, villian announces that he still has cards and the action is on him.

If the board were intact and the hand retrievable out of the muck, id say give hero back his hand.

As things stand, i think pot goes to villan. I understand the contention that villan has an obligation to speak up if he realizes what is going on, but it seems like were talking about only a few seconds here. He might be staring at his hands thinking about wether hes going to call or raise, he might be looking at hero and not the pot or the dealer... But i dont see how you can require him to be watching the dealer to be sure he doesnt award the pot to someone else _while the action is on him_. Ultimately, its _not_ the villans actions that decieve hero into mucking his cards, and thats why i cant see peneliazing him for the mistake.

If the guy sits there until after the deck is square and the button is moved, without contesting the dealer pushing the pot, id say it goes to hero.
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05-02-2008 , 12:32 AM
Quote:
But i dont see how you can require him to be watching the dealer to be sure he doesnt award the pot to someone else _while the action is on him_. Ultimately, its _not_ the villans actions that decieve hero into mucking his cards, and thats why i cant see peneliazing him for the mistake.
Protecting your action is your responsibility. If you aren't able to pay attention to the table while it is your action B&M poker isn't for you. If you have a hand and the dealer starts to push the pot you have an obligation to speak up immediately. If you sit there and watch (or ignore) the pot being pushed and the other player mucks his hand you are out of luck. The bettor in this case is not blameless as he also should have been watching to see that this other guy still has cards. From the description in the OP is sounds like the other player has plenty of time to stop the dealer and didn't (practice saying "stop" and show me a dealer that can move a pot across the table faster then you can say "stop").

edit to add: Player's often say "well it is the dealer's mistake." The dealer making a mistake does not mean you aren't responsible to protect yourself. If you are about to cross the street do you ignore oncoming traffic saying "they have a red light it is their mistake if the hit me" or do you look and make sure you aren't going to get hit. Just because someone is responsible to not do something does not remove you from blame when a simple action on your part would have avoided the situation.
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05-02-2008 , 03:06 AM
Ok thanks for all replies!
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05-02-2008 , 01:26 PM
To OP....and to all you quick muckers out there....why are you guys so eager to muck your hand at the end of pots? To none of you pay attn to who is left? I muck my hand after I see the last person muck, and the pot being awarded to me.

EMPHASIS on after i see the last person muck! Pay attention you online nits!
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