Playing poker as pro for last 5 months now has altered the way i think about life. In poker, hope is a weakness... it polarises with fear it is the same thing. Money is made from others hopes and fears. they are what make people human... to crush in poker you have to remove these 'human emotions'. Future/past must be eradicated and uncared for. In my life however this has spilled into the real world. Poker has made me cynical, i do not see the point in money or life itself.


I see the majority of people as slaves to their hopes and fears, grinding their £6 hour wages working for the few stronger individuals. I live without fear and it causes me to feel a certain loneliness.

Is it advantageous in the real world to live without hope/fear? Or do we need them to love and interact? Is time and life just that much more valuable when you have hope and fear?... Attachment to the world we are in?

I agree and sympathise with what you have said.

To a certain extent Poker has also affected me in a similar way. I have played full-time for also 5 months and the knock on affect on my life outside of Poker has been quite weird. I'm not as good with words as you are but my views on other people and just the way people live their every day lifes has made me feel a lot of negativity for the way the world works. I find myself criticising people who do normal things. Like people who spend all their spare time watching TV - or people who spend days on video games. I criticise them, if not vocally then at least in my head.

Im not sure how it can be advantageous when there is so much feeling of being alone, lonely, not having that everyday normal interaction with "normies"

Also for some reason i found it even had an affect on my Xmas, like i found myself saying to myself - why are ppl even that interested in xmas? its all just a money making scam - obv some ppl have these views already but i found myself getting less enjoyment out of it than usual.

No, you don't live without fear. Also, are you aware of how clichéd your assessment of other people's lives is and how self involved it makes you sound? Loneliness can be a difficult thing. Think harder about what its real causes may be and start with your attitude to the rest of humanity.

How do you know?

Yes i'm aware of how it sounds to the majority, thx for your input.

I'm glad someone relates. I criticise (in my head also) and feel negativity to the world also since getting into poker... Poker makes me see time for what it really is, i do not care for it. Most people hope and fear it, and they do not recognise its value. I can feel myself detaching from the society I'm in because i see things differnetly. I'm not sure I if want the knowledge poker has given me. I pity virtually the whole world and i pity myself more for this for being separated. I recognise these are merely thoughts, perhaps it is not healthy or beneficial to explore them... Or perhaps I'm on the right path and the majority of the rest of the world is oblivious and blinded by society. Society is merely a product of thought, seeing and using so much of thought in poker has made me recognise this. So many People are 'owned' and they are oblivious.

I am not good with words on this matter it is a struggle to express myself accurately and honestly without upsetting people, which is why i keep it to myself.

Physical and emotional freedom. Being lonely is only negative if you let it be otherwise its just an observation which is how I think. Im surrounded by family and i have good freinds, i do not delve into such discussion though as no one understands apart from the few. Its the way things are. Its all respective though, my greed for freedom is not justified when you look at the amount of suffering there is in this world, then again I was born with the opportunities to attain it so i should.

Poker produces no freedom.... it is war and is governed by karma or variance. I see simliraties in the world and it can be depressing to think about.

I've delved to deep into other matters i think, happiness freedom karma ethics.... sigh

+1

Because it would put you in a tiny group of people who have attained such state either through religious fanatacism or years of introspection and self-mastery. Your body demands that you experience fear.

You seem to think you are enlightened and can see through society, which may be valid, but you also suggest you are not articulate enough to express this or what it means for your praxis and interactions with other people. This should be enough motivation for you to simply read more and realise you are far from being the only person to realise something is up. You will find schools of thought that reflect your own shared by large groups of people of different persuasions. This may make you less prone to making arrogant sounding statements about your own superior insight.

Here's some food for thought. You say that you've developed your new-found views on the world as a result of your increasing involvement in, and understanding of, poker. Essentially, becoming more immersed in a small minority has given you a better insight into the majority, alongside a certain contempt for them. Poker has given you specialist knowledge and attributes which gives you a unique perspective on society as a whole.

Now, imagine a college student who makes some new friends and becomes involved in left-wing politics, as college students are apt to do. As the student becomes more involved in left-wing politics and gains a better understanding of them, they begin to develop a better insight into the majority of society from their own perspective and also develop a certain contempt for that majority, who don't have the specific knowledge and opinions they have.

Now, imagine an adult who discovers the world of psychedelic drugs. This adult is very much taken with the profound and mind-altering experiences they have on LSD, mushrooms, salvia, 2c-x, DMT, peyote, hallucinogenic toad venom... you get the picture. They develop some very unique philosophies on many things, including mainstream society, as a result of their experimentation, developing a certain measure of contempt for those who don't know anything about these drugs and those who oppose them.

Now, imagine a teenager who starts to become involved in the whole emo subculture (or whatever kids are into these days). They change their style of clothing, their hair, their makeup, their musical taste and their opinions on a whole bunch of things. They start to think that normal members of society are clueless or dumb, along with a lot of what they stand for. They think that their 'doom-and-gloom' perspective on life is the correct one, and that most other people have the wrong outlook. They develop a lot of contempt for people that aren't the same as them and believe that they - along with their subculture in general - are uniquely enlightened.

Finally, imagine a high-flying stock trader who makes obscene amounts of money playing the markets. As they accumulate wealth, let's imagine that they're one of the slightly obsessive ones who measure their success by their bank balance and their progress by their profits. They begin to look down on the majority of people working 9-to-5 for a relative pittance, considering them weak and foolish for being content with their lot in life instead of striving to earn more.

Do you see the point that I'm making? People have a natural tendency to categorise themselves into in-groups alongside similar people, and to categorise dissimilar people into out-groups. And we're also naturally and automatically negatively disposed to out-group members. It's an ego thing, a self-esteem thing. If you identify yourself with a group that is separate from mainstream society, you begin to develop negative thoughts about mainstream society as an in-built mechanism for maintaining your own confidence. The thing is, there are many millions of people who identify with different minority groups and start to develop negative feelings towards the majority of people, all based on their own different criteria. Your feelings might be based specifically on your experience with poker, but psychologically speaking they're almost identical to those in the examples I provided above. People who are different to you are lesser than you, in a nutshell.

In fact, from what you've written it looks like you became detached from hope and fear as a result of poker. Perceiving others to heavily involve hope and fear in their lives, your mind makes the distinction between yourself and those others. There are now two likely ways of processing this distinction; "others place more emphasis on hope and fear than myself, which is a comparative weakness of mine" or "others place more emphasis on hope and fear than myself, which is a comparative strength of mine". This is again automatic; we're continually evaluating ourselves by comparison to others, and we tend to favour self-serving outcomes (the ego/self-esteem motivation I mentioned earlier).

That's all a bit technical, I guess, which comes from studying the subject for a few years. But the point I'm trying to make is that you should try to take a more positive view of others, and of mainstream society in general. Sure, there's a lot to criticize and look down on when you generalize about the majority of people and consider them at a macro level, but really they're just people like you or I and a lot of them are happier living their day-to-day lives with hope and fear than they would be living them without those emotions. What works for you might not work for somebody else; why be so quick to judge them for it?

I used to hold a lot of the same views you did. But then I recognised mainstream society as a general framework within which a lot of perfectly pleasant and reasonable people are channelled, willingly, because a lot of people like to take the path of least resistance and our society is set up to be fairly comfortable for those who walk with the crowd. Nothing really wrong with that, even if you're not the same. We're set up from birth to take a set path, and it's no individual's fault for following it.

IMO, anyway.

EDIT: Wow, I wrote more than I thought. /essay

Firstly i asked 'how do you know'? and you have failed to answer that question but merely explained your perception rather than any knowledge of me ...

Also

Language is a barrier, especially to those whom do not relate and so perceptions of arrogence are very often assumed and misguided, Once upon a time i would be annoyed at such,,, Your perception is not unique but a product of your intelligence and reasoning and is expected and altho input is appreciated what you say is quite pointless to me and that's just the way it is so peace.

I live with less fear too, but never was interested to do it as pokerplayer.
I played alot 2003-2007 but stopped nearly all poker activities 2007.

Social contacts, friends, free time, health and a well balanced live is important.

I dont know how much you win...fearless is relative. I only need a room to live in, food anything else you cant buy.

Myself cant imagine to work for 6-7 EUR /hour, but i have respect that they do it !!!

WOW - this explains a lot of what i have been thinking about lately. Tyty

i do not "know" you. I am making what I believe to be sound assumptions based on information implicit in your posts, general experience of the follies of young men on internet forums, and the low probability of anyone having completely overcome their physiological and psychological responses to perceived danger i.e. fear.

All the best.

Mr happy, wow that is a lot to digest,a huge amount of argument there and i don't know where to start as so much needs clarified before i can begin.

Firstly I realise that everything is relative. I realise these are just thoughts, I know why i have them and your entirely correct i see myself as different but in fact to me... I KNOW. There is so much i can go into that it would last years. I can split the population in many ways, the main one is that some people recognise they have a 'soul' and the rest don't. The thing is i have not grown like this i have not always been like this. its not just poker that has shaped me it is many things. I have died, i have been completely heart broken, I've explored many states of mind through drugs, i have read alot of books, alot of thoughts... although poker and the community has taught me alot of how people think experience is the main source. I could pin point the begginings down to such things as

-throwin a coin into a bottle lid without thinking about it that was quite far away. I realised i was in a trance and i had 'lived the future'
-Various drugs
-Depression
-Happiness
-Freedom
-Overcoming physical pain
-Meditation, aligning ones soul with the present
-Choosing thoughts, controlling thoughts
-Eliminating fear, to clarify this i would gladly sprint with my eyes closed, i do not care to die tmoro, 'oblivion' would actually be quite sweet. I am rational so dont ask me to jump of a cliff to prove it.
-Reading religous material
-History/philosophy/particulary the greeks.
ect ect i could go on

This natural comparing of myself to others is the sole reason i made this thread and by me making this thread this has basically slapped you across the face and is obvious, however there is no way around this. I was hoping that it would be overcome. The negative generalised view of society was not the point of the thread, society has its + and - and depending which society your a part of and what culture you have will determine where in the spectrum your general view will lie. Anyhoo it is not my view of society that i wanted to discuss but the way I live and the way other people live.

The examples you gave of individuals like the depressed emo or the high flying banker are all based upon desires. This puts them all into the same category, it is one other way of dividing them regardless of how they divide themselves due to their culture. Desire relates to hope and fear, people hope they get their desires and fear that they wont. So i hope the direction of this discussion will reflect this. All i desire is perfect freedom but i know we all get it eventually. I have my doubtful thoughts though and i have to explore them.


Regardless of any perceptions... Perceptions do not change truth.
This is what i asked and it has been missed. We are not all equal in this world, which is why i seek knowledge... also there is karma and it is evident.

I have too much to say but its to much of a struggle expressing it so that i get the right thoughts back. Thank you for your thoughts... oh and

I already recognise this, this framework is just applied thoughts which in turn controle thoughts.... and you use the term 'our society' too liberally... 'western society' maybe more accurate but still.

-------spologies if anyone gets annoyed with what i write it is not my intention. Ty for posting

Well, now we're getting into philosophy, which isn't my forté.

But even truth can be relative when it comes to human judgements. In other words, you can be perfectly correct in thinking something and somebody else can be perfectly correct in holding an opposite viewpoint. It's an odd matter of perspective, and it's not universally advantageous to live life without fear or hope, nor to live it with them. Personally, I think hope and fear are two emotions which make life more exciting, but others do better without them.

I guess the best thing to do is to try and find your niche without inciting anybody else to come and turf you out of it.

(Are you sure you have no desires or fears beyond the desire for perfect freedom though?)

Ywyw

First of all we should clarify the meaning of belief/hope/fear.

OP chooses to take belief and hope as a contrary.

'belief', or the german 'glauben' derives form 'geloben' which means 'to plight'. 'Hope' can be derived to a greek word meaning 'seeing, pleased'.

That propably means Op likes his ears more than his eyes.

Further, OP sees hope as the antithesis of fear but still both as oneness. That is an old theme in christian literature, the indissoluble contradiction between duality and unity. Fear and hope fit in this category pretty well since they can rep heaven and hell.

Inhinsight of hope being the same as fear, meaning hope is an illusion, OP is going gnostic ways, saying god is a demon himself. Gnosticism was the first doctrine being called heretic. So the written word (for exampe the biblecanon) is the demon, we read it again and again and the story doesnt change. It is deterministic, like hell. We hope and we fall till infinity. Buddha sais: 'Demanding means suffering', still the possibility to break the circle of reincarnations and illusions might be the biggest illusion.

But these storys are old and shabby the words worn out and meaningless. Who can tell new storys? Who can find new words and meanings?

Um, how do you know? You are claiming 'truth' is independent of subjective consciousness. Quantum physics experimental data does not confirm your belief. 'Truth' as we know it is inextricably intertwined with our 'perception.' There is no meaningful reality separate from our 'perception'.

I suppose you claim something like e.g. 'gravity is true whether or not we choose to perceive it.' But that is a far different statement. And one that it no way confirms or denies the primacy of 'perception'. We, as thinking minds, as sentient perceptive beings, are the very physics we perceive. No separation.

I suppose by 'truth' you mean the laws of physics and/or metaphysics. Universal Law. Is Universal Law static or mutable? How do you know? What is time? What if the only thing we can change is 'perception'? What if 'truth' is the dancing partner of 'perception'? What if the only way for you to know 'truth' is via 'perception'?

What is the desire for 'freedom'? The 'freedom' to know timeless, static 'truth'? That is a desire to escape the confines of time. Or the 'freedom' to change 'truth', to create reality instantaneously by pure thought? To be the 'truth' independent of 'perception'? The 'truth' that necessarily remains unknowable, undiscovered, singular, meaningless? Self

francis: ^^ very good there's some understanding there

More of an analogy for karma. I do not believe in a god. only energy and its balance which is everything, god is everything in this instance. So depending on how you define god... or perceive me to define god then this could be very correct.

If only we could get past language barriers so easily.

Except that we don't use the Greek derivative. Hope is generally accepted as desire. We hope our fears do not materialise and we fear our hopes not materialising. I do not let such thoughts in my mind, or not for long anyway. When so balanced happiness and unhappiness cease to exist, there's no relativity inside other than what is shown by others in the world around me, which is just energy and will be gone.

Exactly

Lost it a bit here... according to whom? not logic.... by demon you just mean '-' right? or 'satan' or 'fear' or the balck side of the yin/yang spectrum.

I like this... this opens so much discussion. i wont go there though it's so off topic its ridiculous. I'll just say time itself is an illusion.

And Who can perceive the old ones exactly as they are found, meant and originally told and call them 'shabby'?

I have to say this is where conflict arises due to belief. Laws of physics are based upon perception, knowledge is not always derived from perception of the physical world, only proof/language/information/contrast can show physical knowledge or communicate it, we have the intelligence to do so but not so much intelligence to do the same for intangible.. 'things' . I believe life is a separate energy from everything physical so such proof/language/information of knowledge is incredibly difficult to share as our contrast in belief causes no relation.

If I believe something which I cannot sufficiently show to your perception then you cannot know truth as I know it. Only if your similarly aligned can we relate sufficiently. Memory and feeling are very similar to belief, in that they cannot be shown physically, but that is why he have arts and poems and emotions ect where our souls/belief can communicate on a physical plane.

Gravity.... invisible energy/force whatever the hell causes it, without it we couldn't exist, so by existing it is true although we may not have knowledge of that . So yeah that makes sense and i guess its a way of saying what I mean

Freedom comes in many forms, primarily emotional and physical. I desire both. Freedom is on the fine line to step anyway I choose. Not a desire to 'escape the confines of time' but to have the free will. And emotionally can be the freedom to accept inevitability. Its very deep asking that question I won't write to much.

Is it advantageous in the real world to live without hope/fear? Or do we need them to love and interact? Is time and life just that much more valuable when you have hope and fear?... Attachment to the world we are in?

So what are your thoughts on this which is what i was originally seeking.

Feeling allmighty and omniscient can be archieved easily: Never review yourself critical.
Same for all those universalistic concepts.

I made my final paper in mathematical logic, about the decision problem. This problem accured by trying to find an universal mathematical language. It could be shown that such a language is contradictory or incomplete.
But if even in mathematics were is nothing like a universalistic language, how can it be anywere else?

I went very off track in my own mind previously in his thread i didn't express myself sufficiently for i am neither intelligent enough or have enough understanding. I will attempt again thx for all replies.

People HOPE their fears do not materialise.
People fear fear.
People fear suffering.
People fear loss.
People fear their bodies.
People fear others opinion of them.
People fear their own opinion of themselves.
People fear the inevitable.
People fear not being rich enough.

Without this fear/love spectrum there would not be love(or hate), we would still be human?

in poker you have to observe and master this spectrum to succeed, all fears are to be eradicated which revolve around time. All attachment to money must be gone. One has to not tilt, or have no tilt in the spectrum of hope/fear, become balanced for it is unbalanced decision which moves money around the economy. the main edge above intelligence and below luck... which can only get you so far, i have noticed this observation 'spill' into the real world, mine that is.

Another poor attempt of expression but better than the last i hope


So if given the choice, live with the constraints of (hope+fear) or not? Keep in mind hope/fear are needed for love and the apparent shortness of time... and how other people in the world live in other much less fortunate societies.

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+1