Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
EV calclation EV calclation

08-02-2010 , 02:52 PM
Hey guys, Having trouble with poker related EV calculation and wondering if you can help me. It was a hand that happened to me in a live tournament recently.

Blinds are 2k/4k with 500 ante. We are playing 5 handed and it is folded to me OTB. I'm trying to figure out a shoving range on the button and am wondering where I'm going wrong in my calculations






We hold XX OTB with 50,000 chips.
Blinds are 2k-4k with a 500 ante.
We are five handed and on the final table bubble
and it is folded to us.


SB is an Old Guy calling with AJ+,88+.
BB is short staked, holding on for the bubble to burst
and calling with AQ+, TT+.


SB calling with 6.8%
BB calling with 4.7%
BB overcalling with QQ+, AK= 2.6%

When we dont get called we win 8.5k




vs BB= Villain folds 95.3%
we have x% vs his range when he calls
when villain calls we lose
35000-((35000*2+3500)*x)=35000-73500x

Overall I win(8500*.953)-(35000-73500x)(.047)=
=8100.5-(1645-3455x)
=6456+3455x


vs SB= Villain folds 93.2%
we have x% vs his range when called
when villain callls we lose
50000-((50000*2+5500)*x)=50000-105500x

Overall I win(8500*.932)-(50000-105500x)(.068)=
=7922-(3400-7174x)
=4522+7174x



vs both= Both fold 88.8%
we have x% vs both ranges
when both call we lose
50000-(136000x)


Overall I win(8500*.8880-(50000-136000x)(.112)
=7548-(5600-15232x)
=1948+15232x

(8500*.888)+(1948+15232x)(.044)+(4522+7174x)(.021) +(6456+3455x)(.047)=0





7548+85.71+6702.08x+94.962+150.654x+303.432+162.38 5x=0


I thought I was doing all of this correctly and I could solve for x to find the minimum equity needed vs their ranges. Thinking about it now, the x value will obviously be different for each range so my process is completely wrong. Can someone outline how you would go about a calculation like this please
EV calclation Quote
08-02-2010 , 07:44 PM
I'm sending this to the probability forum - better fit and will probably get more responses etc.

-Zeno
EV calclation Quote
08-02-2010 , 07:53 PM
why not solve for x? you just seem to stop

(btw I do not see any evidence of conditional probability just scanning)
EV calclation Quote
08-02-2010 , 08:33 PM
Here is the general equation you need to evaluate:

EVhand = P(both call) EVboth +P(only SB calls)EVsb only + P(only bb calls) EVbb only.

As you correctly stated, there are two equities involved – one versus sb and the other versus bb and they are not necessarily independent. So, if you really wanted to solve this, what you would have to do is fix one equity and solve for the other (assume independence – otherwise you’ll have a mess) and by doing this for a number of different fixed equity values, you will get a curve that defines the pairing equity boundary for +EV. Good luck!!
EV calclation Quote
08-03-2010 , 08:50 AM
This is the final table of a tournament, EV or Expected value =/= cEV or Chip Expected Value.

Exact stack sizes of the people not in the hand is more important than the +cEV shove range from the button.

If this was a cash game, then I like your math, but this is a tournament, where your value is based on how likely other people are to busting. If UTG has about 3BB, then I'm shoving about 10%, if SB has me covered, I'm shoving less, if I have everyone in the tournament covered, then I'm shoving like 50%.

This branch of information in poker is called ICM, and the program Sit 'n' Go Wizard is the best popular program to use to learn this.

IMO
EV calclation Quote
08-03-2010 , 02:03 PM
Can someone check this because it doesn't seem shoving here should be this profitable


SB calling with 6.8% of hands
BB calling with 4.7% of hands
Once SB calls, BB overcalling with QQ+, AK= 2.6%

When we dont get called we win 8.5k




vs BB= Villain folds 95.3%
we have 24.1% equity vs his range when he calls
when villain calls we lose
35000-(73500*.2411)=17279

Overall I win(8500*.953)-(17279*.047)=
=8100.5-812.12
=7288.38


vs SB= Villain folds 93.2%
we have 24.458% equity vs his range when called
when villain calls we lose
50000-(105500*.24458)=24196.81

Overall I win(8500*.932)-(24196.81*.068)=
=7922-1645.38
=6276.62


vs both= Both fold 88.8%
we have 17.123% equity vs both ranges
when both call we lose
50000-(136000*.17123)=26712.72

Overall I win(8500*.8880-(26712.72*.112)
=7548-2991.82
=4556.18



Combining the results for the times both fold, SB call,
BB calls and they both call:

(8500*.888)+(4556.18*.044)+(6276.62*.021)+(7288.38 *.047)=
=7548+200.47+131.81+342.55

=8222.83


We gain 8222.83 in chips from shoving 23o here!!!
EV calclation Quote
08-03-2010 , 02:31 PM
So you have 50K and they both cover you? Oh. No. I think you are saying that the BB only has 35K and the SB has you covered? Is that right?

If there is only 2500 in antes though, why is a 35000 raise (which if called would make the pot 70,000 + antes) making the pot total 73,500. Shouldn't that be 72,500?

Last edited by Sherman; 08-03-2010 at 02:40 PM.
EV calclation Quote
08-03-2010 , 03:09 PM
Ok. Here is what I get as a final result using the data you provided:

Code:
Event	        p(event)	Event EV	Weighted
Both Fold	0.888196	8500	         7549.666
SB Calls Only	0.066232	-23952.20	-1651.200188
BB Calls Only	0.043804	-17038.10	-767.457031
Both Call	0.001768	-26455.875	-46.773987
		                  Total EV	5084.234794

I think some of your numbers might be a bit off.

For the event probabilities do the following:

Everyone folds: p(SB Folds)*p(BB Folds)
Only SB Calls: p(SB Calls)*p(BB Folds | SB Calls)*
Only BB Calls: p(SB Folds)*p(BB Calls)
Both Call: p(SB Calls)*p(BB Calls | SB Calls)*

*You already provided this number as .026.

That should result in the event probabilities I have listed above.

Forgetting that for a moment, what happens when they both fold? You win the $2000 SB + $4000 BB + $500*5 antes = $8500.

What happens when the SB calls? Based on your numbers, the SB must have at least 50K. I am going to use this equation:

Net = Pot*Equity - Risk

In this situation you risk $50,000 and if called the pot will be $106,500 (50K from you, 50K from him, 4000 BB + 2500 antes). You have .24458 equity in this pot, giving you an outcome of $26047.77. Now if we subtract what you risked to get that amount of the pot, we see 26047.77 - 50000 = -$23952.20. (Note: Our pot size disagrees by $1k. I'm not sure why).

So I put that number in the chart.

What happens when the BB only calls you? Based on your information, he must only have 35,000. So our risk can only be 35K. If called, the pot will be 35000*2 + 2000 + 2500 = 74,500. Of which we have .2411 equity, giving us an outcome of 17961.95. But we risked 35000 to get it, so 17961.95 - 35000 = -$17,038.10. So I put that in the chart.

What happens when they both call? Based on your information the pot will be Your 50K + SBs 50K + BBs + 35K + 2500 antes for a total of 137500. Your equity in this spot is .17123 for an outcome of 23544.13. If we subtract your risk we get a net of -26455.90. So put that in the chart.

Now we simply weight each of these 4 possible outcomes by the probability of the event occurring in the first place to get the weighted values, and then we add the weighted values up to get the total EV of $5170.153.

I suspect the reason we have different pot totals has to do with how you are counting antes. I am assuming your stack sizes are AFTER the antes have gone into the pot, but not the blinds. It appears as if you are counting the antes as part of the stack sizes when a/i, thus making a slight difference in the total pot size. In any case, it doesn't make a huge difference in the final EV analysis.


Somehow your weightings are wrong though, which is why your calculation for Total EV does not match mine. But yes, this is a +EV spot either way. Good for greater than 1/2 BB.

However, if this is the FT bubble, ICM considerations might come into play as another poster said. However, ICM considerations are often of more import when deciding to call all ins rather than deciding to shove. I suspect that this play is very much +cEV and probably even more largely +$EV.
EV calclation Quote
08-03-2010 , 03:12 PM
One of our problems is that you are saying the SB calls with a probability of .068 and using that for your SB EV calculation. That is wrong. The SB is the only caller .066 of the time. The other .001768 of the time the SB calls the BB also calls. Thus, .066232 + .001768 = .068, the amount of time the SB calls.

This applies similarly to the your BB calls equity calculation.
EV calclation Quote
08-03-2010 , 07:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherman
So you have 50K and they both cover you? Oh. No. I think you are saying that the BB only has 35K and the SB has you covered? Is that right?

If there is only 2500 in antes though, why is a 35000 raise (which if called would make the pot 70,000 + antes) making the pot total 73,500. Shouldn't that be 72,500?
Sorry, I copied and pasted and forgot the first paragraph. You are right, we have 50,000, SB covers and BB has 35,000. I am trying to work out the EV of shoving 23o in this spot.

The pot being 73,500 is 35000*2+SB+ antes of people not in the hand. You are right in saying I was counting the antes as part of the stack sizes when AI.

Last edited by TStar; 08-03-2010 at 07:30 PM.
EV calclation Quote
08-03-2010 , 07:27 PM
Also thanks Sherman for the work. Much appreciated
EV calclation Quote

      
m