So you want new players who has lots of cash but no idea about the game. You want to rob them. If poker is a game of skill why complaining..

The bolded is depressingly true, I think. There are bottlenecks in the system, especially in the micros, meaning that even the newbies that study hard and put in a ton of volume can't get up to "serious" stakes by grinding it up while using solid BRM. The 'poker pyramid' is too steep to climb.
Let's be charitable and suggest that a new depositor has a 30% chance of beating 2NL, and then a 30% chance of beating 5NL, and a 30% chance of beating 10NL etc etc.
You could have thousands of new 2NL players coming to the game after seeing it on Twitch, but with a 30% chance of beating each level, less than one in a hundred will even reach 50NL.

30% out of 100 beat 2NL = 30
30% of those 30 beat 5NL = 9
30% of those 9 beat 10NL = 2.7
30% of those 2.7 beat 25NL = 0.81

Cliffs: If you can grind your way up from 2NL to 50NL, you're part of poker's 1%.

I really hate that smug emoticon.

Hate to agree wit zach but every word he said was spot on

[spoiler]kind rgds from teh TimStone[/spoiler]

it kinda suck that one cant grind 9max NLH for a living anymore cus you know thats sucha awesome game.
Can still play it for fun tho you know just to make ones life richer

Learning. Demands so much more than watching live streams.

The game won't grow from more mediocre-solid regs being introduced. I'm not sure if you've looked at any lobby at probably 25NL, maybe 50NL or higher but a 6m NL table simply does not run without a big losing fish*. Thus, we need at least one fish for every table that runs. Lots of fish suddenly learning would be terrible for the volume of tables running, and if people who are new to the game already have some kind of strategy which prevent them from losing big, tables won't form around them either. In a hypothetical situation where nobody is playing 40/15 or whatever, no tables run. Your point about tilt is pretty silly too, this isn't 2004. Nobody who's been trying to play seriously for more than about 2 weeks goes on super monkey tilt which puts them in the requisite 'big fish' category.

*this is for good reason - on one of the previous pages I demonstrated that at 50NL a table with 5 regs and a fish (which is pretty normal), assuming all the regs are equivalently skilled, the fish needs to lose at 51bb/100 for regs to break even pre-RB, or slightly less if the regs are only going to break even post-RB.

PEOPLE. ARE. NOT. GOING. TO. BE. SOLID. FROM. WATCHING. SOME. MTT. PLAYER. STREAM. HIS. ****ING. COMPUTER. SCREEN.

in my opinion you also forgot to mention that a lot of the good midstakes+ winning USA players moved to another country to play on stars, so that means that the only USA players who are unable to play on worldwide player pools are the losing ones

also in my opinion scripters ,cheaters, bots ,bumhunters and sites that allow all this in order to make fast money and not long term money , are the nail in the coffin and def not twitch. twitch is just an excuse for the guys mentioned above .



thread should be closed by now and all those ppl crying in the forums about .tv's
should go fill the tables and play the actual game instead of waiting a sound that they got ayto sitted on the left of an unknown player/prob fish.

edit: .TV that reminds you of anything? 2003? moneymaker? boom? the thing that learned you that a game like this exists so you can be here in this thread ? huh? just because it has a ****ing dot you think its a diferent thing? its 2015 the sooner you all guys wake up the better.

Unless you're some ridiculous sicko I would bet money that if you give me a few weeks I could train 5 people who have never played poker before but are somewhat intelligent/video game nerds/average twitch demographic to play with you at a 6m table (not teaching them to collude) in such a way that you would not be a winning player after rake. And this is a case where them enjoying poker is a huge negative because their existence is actually -ev for them and for you. You forget people aren't worried about someone watching twitch and crushing poker for 6 figures/year they're worried about people who without basic advice would blow thousands and instead play in such a way that the only winner is the poker site. Crushing poker hard enough to make a living is extremely hard, especially from scratch. Learning enough theory to cause regs to not be able to win much if anything at all after rake is a lot less difficult to do.

First time in history?

Seriously everyone who doesn't think training sites/free access to basic poker strategy didn't play a large part in harming the ability to make a lot of money from poker (*cough Joe Tall *cough) read this.

Anyway I'm done wasting my time on this. Pretty much everyone who plays or has played for a living recently knows what I'm saying is true.

Without these new people poker will still continue to decline. Do you really want to not take a chance? Most twitch people would never play poker unless they saw the videos they are seeing. Do you really think people watching what is basically a few RIO videos coming into the community is a bad thing? The people with such fear really should think about learning a bit more themselves. If you stopped learning at what it takes you to earn a few BB/100 at 200nl 6max, maybe you are the problem at not making more money for yourself.

Exactly. That how it should be. And thats how it was in 2009, 2010 and partly 2011.
So please do me a favour and stop comdemning people who grind for a living and are dependant on having an edge bc i have to pay bills each month.

There was no bumhunting pre coaching sites, there was not even bumhunting when cardrunners came UNTIL videocoaches pointed out the importance of playing fish in position. There were no scripts bc i would be able to play an unknown headsup for 2minutes until the next reg joined.

Its all so easy for you, its always the bumhunters (today: scripters) who are responsible for todays game.
Do you think i would pay 1000s of dollars a year for a software written in 6hours if it wouldnt be necessary at this point.

Correct me if im wrong but my script isnt teaching people what hands to open in which position. It isnt telling people which boards are good to barrel off. It isnt telling what a sound bankroll management is. BUT BECAUSE OF MY SCRIPT AND MY BUMHUNTING GAMES ARE WHAT THEY ARE TODAY -ON WHAT DRUGS ARE YOU?

So for the love of god stop telling that scripts and bumhunting ARE the reason for todays state of games while they are a symptom and not more.

As much as all you guys love to hate ME every single one of you (at least those who are around for a while) know that this is 100% trooth even if ud never admit it bc u have your own agendas.

Im quite sure teh avg fun nvg poster cannot see the big picture and people who just started out a year ago prolly neither but im here for 6 ****ing years now, i live poker, i breathe poker and i prolly logged more hands in that time than anybody who posted so far so b4 u post over and over what scum i am id be glad if you sometimes try thinking about the bigger picture.

[spoiler]kind rgds from teh TimStone[/spoiler]

while you were writing this wall of text i did an edit on my post, read it take your answer think about it deeply try to understand the real meaning of those 3 lines and maybe you can see "the bigger picture'' not me. since i dont rely on poker to pay my bills and just hanging around on micro stakes (still winning/beaking even lolz with the 2007 knowlege i have on poker)threating it as a video game but while observing the scene both live and online i think i can see things more clearly than most posting in this thread.


p.s i never will blame you or anyone for using what you wanna use to get an egde on other ppl ,its a thing human kind does since the begining of history . im just having fun/trolling ppl sitting inside a ferrari parked on a handicapped ppl's parking place crying out loud about why their life has to be so hard for them.

k?

I have some sympathy for this viewpoint. I can understand that you're worried about being unable to continue living a baller lifestyle in the long run, because of how tough the game has become.
What I don't understand is why you think Twitch will make things much worse. If bumhunters are a symptom of poker's ill health, isn't it possible that Twitch is a potential cure, or a shot in the arm at least? If you're a bumhunter, don't you want some new bums to play?
And yet you gave the impression that a kid can watch half an hour of Twitch, and then crush you at 400NL. Paranoid much?

There's no clear reason why the poker market should exist at all. That seems like a fundamental problem.

It could be that the maximally efficient state is everyone sits out. It could be that is where things are more or less heading, inextricably.

Tim cry me a ****ing river.

How is keeping new people out going to help you? How else are people going to know about online poker unless someone shows them?

OP makes some decent points but losing the US market and fencing off juicy countries (Italy, Spain) is by faaaaaaaarrrrrrr the biggest reason there's less profitability in the online games right now. You lose America...the country with NOT ONLY the most disposable income on average, but also loads of free time when compared to other countries around the world where daily life struggles take up huge amounts of time.

The Russians going from donks to solid is just a super natural part of the progression of the game/industry. Do you not remember the Germans and "intellipoker?" Those avatars were like the biggest signal for juicy games for a year or 2 and now arguably some of the greatest players in the world are Germans.

I'm interested if someone could link to a thread/article that discusses the economics of running a stream...I cannot imagine it makes sense financially for any grinders besides the first movers/guys who can bring over cross audiences to/from big hit video games where your potential audience is 1000x the poker nerd community. But people are sheep and sheep gonna sheep and chase that need for attention to fill that void in their lives (which coincidentally makes poker always profitable).

so this thread actually is about you trying to tell us that you never got coached by anyone or anything about these things you mention and you invented them? and still wonder why ppl here laugh at you?

all hail the king !

That's a nice rant Tim.

Your post seems to imply that you (and all players need scripts/HUDS) to win at poker and that's why you use them. Well I got good news for you- You don't as I win at poker without them. And if they got rid of scripts I'd win a lot more as I don't think 80%+ of the current script users could.

So why don't you give up your script and ask the sites to ban them all and then you'll see if you are genuinely entitled to be a winning player.

+ i own a hud but i would be happy to see a post from pokerstars tomorow that says ''ALL 3RD PARTY PROGRAMS ARE NOW UNABLE TO RUN ON YOUR PC WHILE STARS CLIENT IS OPEN, YOU CAN OPEN YOUR HUD AFTER YOU LOG OUT TO REVIEW REPLAYS/RESULTS ETC ETC''

[ ] ferrari
[ ] handicapped peoples space
[ ] hard life





its been explained in detail now several times. I still will go ahead one last time:
- will you be able to crush 400nl aftet 10hours twitch? No
- will you be able to lose under 10 and v often even under 5bb/100 at NL50 after watching 8 hours of twitch. Very likely.

Why those semifish/bad/mediocre regs arent good for anybody but stars was explained in detail couple of posts ago. If you understand the current rakesystem you will understand teh problem.
The only party for which those players are good is stars. Ever thought about why stars signing new twitcher each week? For the greater good of poker? Lmao

Im not paranoid much but i have a v good understanding what different players with different lossrates means for the games. Somebody clueless now will shout "lol u cant exploit a -7bb loser time to quit bitch" while he once again has not the slightest clue about rake and implications of it.




I dont mind getting new players into poker. Actually i love it.
BUT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD I DONT UNDERSTAND WHY WE HAVE TO PROVIDE EVERY SINGLE NEW ****ING PLAYER WITH A ROADMAP HOW TO IMPROVE. Everybody wants to get better but just let people find out how to get better for themselves.
AND IF PUMPING EDUCATION INTO NEW PLAYERS FROM THE GETGO OUR ONLY CHANCE TO GET NEW PLAYERS INTERESTED IN POKER THAN ITS 1) soon game over and 2) something terribly wrong


Why dont we get moar celebreties like ronaldo and rafa? Actors, models, sportstars, w/e. Those guys attract a clientele we are deeply in need of. Unfortunately those r for once most likely more expensive than jcarver and twice carver is way better for stars in providing hordes of small microstakes losers instead of teh tennis fan who blows 600bucks at midstakes in half an hour...


[spoiler]kind rgds from teh TimStone[/spoiler]

5 stars for good entertainment

I don't think the average person believes they can deposit on the internet and make a big run anymore. Those days are gone when someone completely clueless would hop on and deposit 500-2k and play at mid stakes. Anyone with any sort of a clue knows the internet is where the real sharks are, so they can't come in clueless and profit. StickyRice was one of a kind, he was the only shot at the huge fish you were hoping for. Too many regs berated him and he finally wised up, there should have been nothing but cheering that guy on and hoping his run continued. He should have been on a 2hr delay as to not let regs find him.

A lot of gamers are smart, they know you have to study to improve(not all gamers obviously, certain games would translate much better to poker). For the smart ones, they watch the popular streamers, which means loldonkaments. This will only be good when they make a big score and try their hand at cash.

I only know of 1-3 streamers that are capable of "creating monsters", they aren't terribly popular either. Maybe 400 on a good day watching them.

I think you are way too worried about what kind of players this will create. I would bet 1-5 twitch viewers become crushers within 2 years, would be highly surprised if it were more. There will be viewers who bink tournaments, but i don't think that will be much of an indicator of skill. You shouldn't be worried about a few decent players when the amount of bad regs this will create is way more.