There are some home games where there is no rake per se, but the dedicated dealer is working for tips. Often the dealer is the host.

Is this a form of rake? Or would you call this a non-raked game?

A tip is voluntary, so there's that.

I voted no it is not a rake. Not required to tip. But if the host is the dealer ( and profits) this does go over the strict rules of a social game in KY. It is not likely to be enforced, but it does put the game in a slightly different level of home game. Having an unpaid dealer for tips is also a little questionable, but still hardly likely to be enforced around here anyway.

I would call it an unraked game. Having a dealer who expects a (voluntary) buck or two each hand is dramatically different from having a dealer grabbing up to 10% of every pot.

Strategy-wise, I guess it has about the same effect as a small rake. So does cutting $10 off your stack to chip in for food, or tipping the host out of your cash-out. However, an actual rake is so much more of a drain on the game's funds that I have to put it in a class of its own.

If this is otherwise a friendly home game that has just decided to get a volunteer dealer and the players voluntarily tip without undue pressure (social pressure to conform is one thing .... but tip or your not invited back is undue pressure) I wouldn't consider it a raked game.

If the "host" is dealing or getting a benefit from the tips I might question whether this is a home game or a business venture ... I think the dynamics of the player base would probably be relevant in my analysis. If I think the "Host's" intent is run a social game and then I wouldn't consider it a raked game, If I think the intent is to make a profit from operating (as opposed to playing) a game I would think of it as a raked game even though I wouldn't generally call tipping a rake.

If you are asking whether or not it may convert a game from a legal social game to an illegal game in jurisdictions which permit social poker games it very well may. These statutes don't generally refer to raked games .... they refer to operators getting revenue, and dealers are operators. I'm not saying tipping would necessarily convert a legal game to an illegal game. I'm simply saying that if you try to run a game and you think you can get around the law by simply not calling it a rake you may find that it doesn't work as a legal defense. (Just like charging for food or beverage instead of a rake may not work)

Yes, psandman has it pretty much right, But the likelihood of trouble with local authorities over a "raked game " is still quite small with these methods....... a very small chance exists , but loud noise and bad parking patterns are more likely a bigger problem.......Fist fights on your front lawn are another negative.

Yeah, psandman echoes my own thoughts. I picked the last choice because of this.

If it's a social group, but the host deals and people throw him a buck here and there for his efforts, I don't consider it a fee to play.

But if a tip is expected, and if you are not welcome if you don't tip regularly, I would consider it a type of rake. It is not actually voluntary in that circumstance.

I also imagine there are a lot of club games, most likely for higher stakes than your normal home game, where the dealer is just there for the tips, but otherwise it is just a group of friends playing poker. That does not seem like a rake at all to me, even if tips are expected to keep Roscoe happy as dealer and help him pay his college tuition.

If the host is getting part of the tip , then yes I would say a rake. Same thing if the tip is mandatory, I would say it's a rake.

If a busted player is dealing for tips, it's a different story. If someone comes to the game just to deal for tips, then no I would say not a rake but it's getting to be a grey area.

It depends, IMO, so I voted for #4.

I voted for #4 for many reasons already stated in this thread. Generally speaking, tipping the dealer is voluntary - though not doing so is frowned upon in some games and can get you uninvited.

As a mod in HGL, I allow game listings with dealers who work for tips as long as the game itself is not raked. I know of at least a couple games there who use a full-time dealer just because it is more convenient and fun for the players, and I have zero problem with this. As long as the host is upfront about tipping expectations, players can decide whether or not to play.

I agree with all of this. It seems to be an "it depends" situation, as Abby posted.

It was some of those HGL games that got me thinking about this. I take a fairly laissez faire attitude about poker. The gumment should get outta our binness. But there are some creative ways to essentially rake a game, and I thought it would be interesting to see what others thought.

My game falls under this category.

We have a dedicated dealer because we play a 10 game mix on a large table. It'd be a pain in the butt to pass the deal and almost all the players have said they prefer having a dealer.

Each player (myself as the host included) gets $5 out of their initial buy in taken out for the dealer and then he works for any additional tips.

The $5 fee may be considered a "rake", but, I even pay it too so the house doesn't benefit at all and it's way cheaper than a traditional raked game. I personally don't view tips as rake whether at a home game or underground club. I also have a couple cops that play in my game who won't play in true raked games so I guess they think it's okay...

#4, depends on circumstances.

As a black/white person... I'll say that it's not rake by definition.

As a grey area guy... I can see the slippery slope

"there's no rake, but we all tip the dealer" is plain enough -- the language makes a perfectly clear distinction between raking and tipping.

BUT, the difference is more technical than functional. I suppose the poorer players are tipping less, so there's an egalitarian aspect to it, but it's still money coming out of the player's pockets to fund the game. Where exactly it goes is a much more minor point than the amount.

I wouldn't assume dealer tips are less costly than rake. At the stakes I enjoy playing, any significant dealer tips would far outstrip a reasonable-percentage rake.

I also don't think tipping is ever truly "voluntary". If it was, we'd have abandonded the practice a century or more ago.

Your game was one I had in mind when I made my previous post. I think there is a subtle but important difference between:

1. The host hires a dealer to make the game move faster and more smoothly, and all players including the host pay a fee and/or tips for his services.
2. The host is the dealer and expects all other players to pay a fee and/or tip for his services.

In both cases, players are probably paying about the same amount per session, but I view one as a slightly non-standard home game and the other as a raked (club) game.

Nothing here that I disagree with, except perhaps the highlighted part. And the only reason I care about that distinction is because of my role as an HGL mod. As a player, the amount of rake/tips I'm paying is more important than the owner of the pocket that it goes into.

I deal a no rake game out of my basement for tips so this is interesting to me. I occasionally play and hire another experienced dealer, but greater than 90% of the time I deal. It is a 2/5 game and I supply snacks, beers, drinks, hard alcohol, and anything else the players might request. I've always considered it kind of a gray area. I am making between $300 and $400 every time I deal so obviously this is a form of a business for me. I put a lot of work into this game and care about all of my players as friends and don't consider them business clients or anything of the sort. I think there is a clear difference between tips and rake, however it's still kind of a gray area so I'm not 100% sure where I stand on this one.

I still don't think tipping the dealer is rake, but I get how tips to the host/dealer is a way for him to profit from organizing the game and is definitely not in the spirit of a purely social unraked home game. There is a lot of social pressure to tip, but for a home game (dealer for tips only) there is value for players from the tipping in addition to the "social pressure" to do it.

I want to be clear this thread is not about any particular game, much less one listed in HGL.

I know other forums get into the subject of tipping ad nauseum, I that was not my intent either.

It was a way to explore the subject of when a game with a tipped dealer edges into the area of a game which is essentially pay-to-play.

If a regular player at your game never tipped one cent, and let's say he also never drank or ate any of your offerings, would you resent him? Would you feel inclined to mention something to him?

What if he did eat and drink his share? Would that change your attitude?

Dealing one night for tips, minus the expenses of snacks and alcohol, and you're still making $300-$400 a night? I can't imagine people tipping that much.

I voted "grey area" . . . it's money leaving the table so, in a sense it is a form of rake. But it is not going to the "house" so it is not technically what is generally thought of as "rake".

You mean, if it is not going to the house, right? If the host is dealing, he's the house. Or the dealer might share some of the tips with the host at the end of the night. That's why I put that option in there.